When I said "Fuck you, it was great" I didn't think you guys would actually make attempts to debate the topic. This reminds me vaguely of the old "Goku vs. Superman" arguments on newsgroups during the 90's.
Yet, somehow, I feel compelled to reply. Perhaps my didactic ways will kill the beast that has spawned.
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ivytheplant wrote:
Aha. "Brawn is not dead!" camp member spotted.
No, not really. Brawn is dead. He just died in a really sucky way. They should've drawn him getting his chest blown apart or something; that would've been more fitting.
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When I first proposed that the "G1" cartoon sucked, I only meant to anyone over the age of 12. Now I'll expand my meaning to be "anyone over the age of 12 and people who understand that just because you liked something when you were 12 doesn't mean it has even the smallest iota of actual value." And I say this as a guy who as a kid who had 4 billion Transformers and watched the show every day.
The Transformers is an excellent escapist adventure that has more than an iota of entertainment value. Watching it is fun and the experience is enjoyable, like many "action/scifi" shows and movies. It has value just as Star Trek and Star Wars have value: as franchises that entertain.
Seriously, I think you need to "sit back and relax." It'll allow you to enjoy a lot more of what's out there rather than label it "suck." (That is, unless you relax by saying stuff sucks, in which case you're just a bitter old man.)
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As a bonus feature on the DVD, they had an old episode of the cartoon which made EVEN LESS SENSE, with two complete losers adding commentary. They were somehow able to pretend -- no doubt to themselves as well as others -- that not only did the complete rediculousness on the screen make sense, but that it was some sort of art form worth commenting on.
The episode was pretty straightforward, actually: Decepticons attack the Autobots, the Autobots fight back. See? Simple.
And I'm pretty sure the commentators were just interested in giving the thing context (i.e. explaining why it is that people had been wanting to see this ep). I didn't exactly here them dropping references to Chaucer or Monet.
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But I'm not deluded enough to think it's some grand epic that should be lauded as high literature. It's a goofy, fun cartoon with giant space robots fighting each other.
I haven't lauded it as "high literature." You've misunderstood my argument.
not_Scyess's original statement was that the cartoon sucked. "Suck" means it's boring and not worth watching (ex. "The Postman"). I say that since the cartoon is entertaining and fun to watch, it doesn't suck. (In this same manner, old B-grade horror movies don't suck since they're "awesomely bad.") Moreso, it's great because of all the good elements around it (such as the fact that giant robots are just an inherently awesome concept that takes a lot to screw up).
To argue that it does suck, you'd need to attack the show's watchability and entertainment value. But you've already said it is fun to watch, you've agreed with me that it doesn't suck.
Unless you want to define all escapist style shows as "suck," in which case I think your definition is wrong...but that's a long protracted argument for another day.
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So basically all you're saying is that Transformers only redeeming quality was its voice acting? Which makes sense because it certainly wasn't the stiff, personality lacking animation or one of the six uncreative I've-seen-this-before storylines that they would rotate through in 80s cartoons.
It's not its only redeeming factor, but it's a strong one. It's also the only one I cited as being comparable in quality to the older cartoons of the golden age. Personally, I think the Transformers tended to sound better than Betty Boop, for example, or the original Superman cartoon by Fleischer (I'm not talking about audio quality, but the match of acting talent to character).
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Yes, they do make it less great, because it shows you how cheaply and lazily the cartoons were made. When 30 years before anyone even thought of the idea of making cars turn into robots they were constantly creating new and innovative characters, storylines and techniques. These were then slowly over the years thrown out one by one (and yes Hannah-Barbera had a big part in this) until we ended up at the 80s where as long as it seemed to be moving, didn't offend anyone, and sold some plastic crap to kids they were perfectly fine with it.
So, you're saying that you don't find TF fun to watch or entertaining and therefore think it "sucks." That's at least a better argument than most of what's been presented so far, even if I disagree with your tastes and think you're being a bit overcritical.
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But seriously, are you trying to tell me that this:
can even hold a candle to something like this:
Comparing Transformers to Tom and Jerry fails to show that Transformers sucks. Tom and Jerry is good and is arguably better than TF, but not being "as good" doesn't equal "suck." Your attempt to prove suckage by comparison would only work if I'd said Transformers was the greatest ever (which I didn't; I was specific to the 1980's). Your earlier argument was at least better at assessing TF's quality based on its own merits.
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You're comparing an anime producer as being better than today's "mouth only" animation? They fucking invented that form of "animation"!
When I said "they" I was referring to Toei and other anime producers; I think you misread the pronoun to mean Hanna-Barbera. I was commenting on the decline in quality of anime producers from the 80's into the 90's, not saying they were being better than that.
