Stripcreator needs to be free.  The site should generate revenue through ads not random donations.  With sites like Digg, Fark, and other social networks out there Stripcreator should be able to generate tons of traffic.  The problem is that people like to be able to vote and do all the things that can only be unlocked if you make a donation. This drives customers away and in the long run is going to hurt this site. 

I want to put special emphasis on the voting aspect. The type of people who are going to drive traffic to this site thrive on voting and having their opinion heard. I love this site but it seems like there are only a few people making quality stuff and I believe that the number of quality submissions will increase if Stripcreator is freed.  Combined with an open voting system we should see an explosion of creativity and quality comics flooding the site.

I of course understand that along with all the good there will be ten times as much crap floating around.  Hopefully an open voting system will go a long way towards hiding the crap.

Let me hear what you think!

I think the voting system you hold so dear would be seriously put in jeopardy if it were free. It would become an abused system where every troll would roll through and begin to down vote everything to the point where the voting would matter even less than it does now. Having people donate before they vote shows that they have a commitement to at least trying to be a member of the community. It's like a moose lodge, you gotta pay your dues or else theres no orange soda at the snack table.

Okay... first things first...

"Make Stripcreator Donation Free!" OXYMORON!!!!!!!! Seriously. If you were going to title it, say "No more donations" or "Make Stripcreator Free" or something to that extent. For serious.

Secondly, I agree with crabby. If the site had all priviledges open to everyone, Brad would probably end up shutting it down within a matter of weeks. Have you seen some of the content the non-donors make? We're lucky that they can't vote.

I'm still not 100% a fan of having all the forums open to every user. I liked it when users had to be invited to join the forums. It let the mods and brad have a little more control over the content.

As well, a donation can be any amount of money. If you're that much of a cheapskate and can't afford to donate $1 to a guy running a popular website, then maybe you should reconsider having joined. We donate because we appreciate the work that brad puts into this site, and because we want to support him (and his bitchin' music career).

I feel like making a donation is like saying to brad, the creator of this fine website, "hey, thanks for going through all this trouble of paying for this website to exist so that I can play around with clip art characters and pass judgement on every person I've ever met - in comic form!"

The ads, from what I understand, do not generate that much revenue. And, in order for them to do so, I'm pretty sure that there would have to be a lot more, which is really distracting and tacky. I hate seeing ads or accidentally clicking on them on other sites. I'm glad that I don't have to see the ads now, actually, since brad decided to delete them for donors. I'm sorry you can't appriciate a nice, clean layout design with no ads.

As for non-donor features, I think being able to make a comic strip for free as well as being able to take part in the stripcreator community are great "free" features. It's like a non-limited trial period. If the beginner users is pleased with the "trial", they have the option to donate money in exchange for exploring the additional features that the website has to offer. 

Brad personally fixes issues with the website and the comic generator. I'd say that is well worth a few bucks from me. I mean, you pay for any other type of maintence, don't you? If your air conditioner breaks down, you would have someone come out on a service call to tinker with it for $50/hr until it works properly again. Brad doesn't even tell you how much to pay him.

I agree with crabby. The voting system would lose a lot of its credibility if anyone were allowed to vote. Fly-by-night users might come here, vote every strip they see "bad" and never return. Or one single person might sign up with every email address they have (and create some more) just for the purpose of voting for their comics or someone else's - in an effort to boost themselves or to unpopularize another user or users.

Wow! I find it hysterical that you guys actually think the voting system could get worse! This doomsday scenario of trolls coming and downvoting everything is totally absurd. Even if it did happen it would have NO EFFECT becuase, as you said, they would down vote EVERYTHING.  Net effect = zero.

 I also find it strange that you think that there aren't already people doing this exact thing. The few people who donate have a vested interest in seeing there stuff make it to the front page. And since there are so few people who can vote they down vote everything BUT there stuff which DOES have a negative impact on the site. This problem is magnifyed by the small voting community and would be greatly diminished if voting only required an account rather than a donation. Trolls are a small minority while the normal , good natured voters are generally in the majority.

It is also worth pointing out that even if the site did not require donations that there would be nothing stoping any of you from making a donation.  If you love the site so much that you feel inclined to make a donation DO IT!

 My point is still this. Making the voting system more like a digg or reddit system would make the site better. I understand that it would not make the site perfect. There will always be problems with any type of voting system. It's just that the system we currently have stifles creativity and encourages foul play.

I'm a donating member and I love this site. My wanting it to be free has nothing to do with me being a cheapskate or whatever other nasty thing you want to say to me. I am an Economics major and a lover of the internet and my experience says that sites like this slowly dwindle down to a few hardcore users who end up creating an incredibly dense and polarized community, who stifle inovation, and set themselves up as the gods of what is and isn't good.

Oxymoronic or not.

Make Stripcreator Donation Free!

We've had issues with the voting feature before. In fact, the voting system used to be "free".

Honestly, your reply in this thread proves just what I had suspected when you first began this thread: you're just looking to start an argument and insult people for not having the same views that you have. I'm happy with the current donor/non donor system and therefore disagree with you. If that makes me naive, or "paranoid" of a "doomsday scenario" in your eyes, so be it. Don't try to insult me or hold your pending Economics degree over me or anyone else here. You're pretty much doing exactly what you accuse of the users here: assuming you are the god of what is economical (in your words, "good") or not.

i've always thought comic voting should be open to non-donors. it would increase the popularity of the site, evidenced by the gazillion sites like ratemydog, ratemypoo, ratemydogifashionedoutofpoo. increased popularity should draw in more revenue for Brad too. which is cool. cause Brad rocks

i'd keep just about everything else for the donors, though, to motivate new peeps to donate to get the donor-only features. simply because i don't want to see ads plastered all over the site

and i also agree the voting system as we have it now is pretty flawed. lots of downvoting, multiple accounts, etc. but the main thing wrong with it imo is that people care so much. before we had ratings, it used to be that the payoff for a good comic or series were the comments you'd get when you posted it in a thread. now it seems the payoff is the rating, which is silly, since just about everyone here would agree that the comics of our own that we find funniest aren't our highest rated

It would be wicked if everything was open source and free, and if we could all get along etc.  

I guarantee you Brad has thought hard about how he funds his site and how he runs it, and has made his choice.

Whoever you are, don't ever fucking PM me again.

This is Stripcreator.  

.. and he bit and PM'd me!

quote:

---

attitudechicka wrote:

We've had issues with the voting feature before. In fact, the voting system used to be "free".

Honestly, your reply in this thread proves just what I had suspected when you first began this thread: you're just looking to start an argument and insult people for not having the same views that you have. I'm happy with the current donor/non donor system and therefore disagree with you. If that makes me naive, or "paranoid" of a "doomsday scenario" in your eyes, so be it. Don't try to insult me or hold your pending Economics degree over me or anyone else here. You're pretty much doing exactly what you accuse of the users here: assuming you are the god of what is economical (in your words, "good") or not.

---

You are taking my comments grossly out of context and placing meaning on them that I did not intend. Rather than turn this into a hate fest I would like to say that I think we ALL want the same thing for this site: For it it to be the most awesome comic creation site on the web and by that I mean one that each of us enjoys in our own way.  If you think I am trying to insult you it is because you are used to that type of banter on forums. My intent was not to insult you or anyone else.  I mention personal facts about myself so that you will know where my argument is coming from.   And as for me doing exactly what I am fighting against, I would say that I my argument has nothing to do with the content of this site rather with the system by which it is judged.

And tell your friends about this thread so we can get a good debate going. Remember we all want the same thing in the END, we just disagree about how to get there!

 Oxymoroninc or not.

Make Stripcreator Donation Free!

I think the tension of this thread is much too high. In one corner is the new age idealism that people are inherently good and it will all work out, in the other are the people that think that people are all bad and will do whatever it takes to get the "all important" "top rated" slot. We all want what we think is best for the site, and yet we are all one post away from calling each other "doo doo heads"

I agree with a mixture of things, like mandingos where the rating system can be open for non-donors, but everything else is after you donate.

I also think that if you think your comics are funny, you shouldn't worry even if you have one star with 12 votes, and people consistently tell you how horrible you are (like bladdader).

 What's important here is that my opinion doesn't matter, I am only a marginally funny guy that just wants to keep the family together.

quote:

---

seanator wrote:

 What's important here is that my opinion doesn't matter, I am only a marginally funny guy that just wants to keep the family together.

 

 

---

Lets huddle in the corner together and hope mommy and daddy can make it through this without anyone getting stabbed.

Well said crabby, well said seanator.

This is a website where people make comics.

life is not defined by how many stars you have on Stripcreator.

I agree that open voting is probably ideal and it's the way I'd love to have the site. But voting was open to everyone long ago and I learned that in any voting system the number one issue is cheating. I lost patience with trying to keep voting fraud in check and it also frustrated legitimate users tremendously.

The donations don't make much money for me but they do provide a useful psychological/monetary barrier in that anyone who wants to game the system has to place a dollar or two on the line. If they get caught, they've thrown their money away as they'll be banned and their votes erased. Plus, I have their Paypal account info with their real name and address, so they can be blocked from donating on any new accounts if needed.

If you have any ideas for how open voting could be implemented without exponentially increasing the amount of resources needed to monitor and maintain it, I'd be happy to hear them.

The difference between digg and reddit and stripcreator voting is that those voting systems are used to refer people to a variety of sites all over the internet, not necessarily to reflect the quality of all the creative work within one site.

As Mandingo points out, there have been instances of people creating multiple donor accounts and using the extra voting power to affect ratings, but those instances are rare and when they are discovered, Brad strips the voting abilities of the extra accounts. I, for example, have two donor accounts, but I can only vote with this one.

Recently, we've been dealing with one user in Read My Damn Comics who creates a new account every couple days, posts a thread of his comics, and blows a gasket when people comment negatively on his strips. If voting were open, he is just the sort of person who would keep creating accounts just to slam the users who dared speak publicly about the quality of his work. People would be afraid to comment in the forums out of fear of downvoting.

Ulitmately, I make comics for me and I'm flattered when anyone votes on them. When I get downvoted, I just assume my comic wasn't as funny to a wider audience than the first few people who liked it.  As a moderator on this site who occasionally has to piss people off, I'd be bummed out if I got knocked down for keeping this a fun place to visit.

quote:

---

Brad wrote:

I agree that open voting is probably ideal and it's the way I'd love to have the site. But voting was open to everyone long ago and I learned that in any voting system the number one issue is cheating. I lost patience with trying to keep voting fraud in check and it also frustrated legitimate users tremendously.

The donations don't make much money for me but they do provide a useful psychological/monetary barrier in that anyone who wants to game the system has to place a dollar or two on the line. If they get caught, they've thrown their money away as they'll be banned and their votes erased. Plus, I have their Paypal account info with their real name and address, so they can be blocked from donating on any new accounts if needed.

If you have any ideas for how open voting could be implemented without exponentially increasing the amount of resources needed to monitor and maintain it, I'd be happy to hear them.

---

Wisdom.

Should we start a new thread or just keep the ball rolling right here. Let me know everyone.

quote:

---

attitudechicka wrote:
Honestly, your reply in this thread proves just what I had suspected when you first began this thread: you're just looking to start an argument and insult people for not having the same views that you have.

---

I think if they bring in a new system, all the current donors should be WORSHIPPED LIKE GODS!

For reals though, I'm all for the site making more money for Brad (he deserves it) but what I have to wonder is how much more money it would make against how much more work would be involved for Brad.

I'm pretty sure in this new system he'd be bombarded with constant e-mails about how user a downrated user b several thousand times.

I'm seeing a lot of good points here, in that it would be nice for everyone to have the priveledge to vote and be voted on...

I guess I don't really do the voting, nor do I really care about my comics being voted on. Like Dingo said, there used to be the satisfaction of getting messages in your inbox about how awesome the comic was... I did that all the time when I first started. That was how I got invited to the forums, was by complimenting the right people (although at the time I didn't realise that they were mods... oh well).

Having a site with all features available to donors and non-donors alike takes away the niceties of donating. We all donated (As I said previously) to support brad and his endeavours... If these people that are complete newbies to the site come in, don't know who this "brad" character is, and just start throwing comics all over the site and downvoting everyone who crosses their path because they think its "hilarious", it kind of defeats the whole atmosphere that's been created.

If you were to open it up What about a minimum of 10 member votes with a minimum of 3 star rating, any lower than that and your comic votes no longer count. It would make it hard (but not impossible) for multi cheating, and reward users who haven't yet donated, but do contribute in a positive way to the site, which may in turn lead to them actually wanting to donate.

Im actually thinking about what 'Dingo said and start leaving more comic comments in the future, top rated is nice n all, but its even better to have that personal nod of approval.

Comments are awesome, but I can't always think of something witty to say, and sometimes I just want to give a random annonymous rating, so I can see crabby say "Who the fuck is rating this?"

I'm kidding, crabby. I never rated that comic.

quote:

---

TheGovernor wrote:

If you were to open it up What about a minimum of 10 member votes with a minimum of 3 star rating, any lower than that and your comic votes no longer count. It would make it hard (but not impossible) for multi cheating, and reward users who haven't yet donated, but do contribute in a positive way to the site, which may in turn lead to them actually wanting to donate.

 

Im actually thinking about what 'Dingo said and start leaving more comic comments in the future, top rated is nice n all, but its even better to have that personal nod of approval.

 

 

---

I like the sound of that. A minimum 'star' rating to be able to vote on others comics.

The noob creating the multiple accounts has targeted me pretty visciously for some reason (I can't think why....) and seems to take great delight in blasting my top rated comics with every new persona he/she/it creates here.

While in the big scheme of things this means very little to me, within the microcosm of SC I try hard to make every comic as good as I can which is why I only have a little over 200 comics to my name. Seeing them belittled arbitrarily by some disgruntled little sot whose parents obviously ignored him as a child DOES get a bit frustrating.

Enough whining. Off to War.

Cheers!

I'd like to apologise to Creature - at best you were trying to provoke healthy debate. I have been a bit cranky lately to be fair but no excuse for me to start swearing at folks on t'internet. I am sorry.

That said, there has been some good discussion here - but if you can think of a better way to make SC voting fairer and less prone to abuse, please let us know. I stand by my reckoning that Brad's current system is the best one for him, and the majority of users.

And for once I agree with AngryAmerican!   Expect the first of the four horsemen by pub closing time.   

quote:

---

TheGovernor wrote:
If you were to open it up What about a minimum of 10 member votes with a minimum of 3 star rating, any lower than that and your comic votes no longer count. It would make it hard (but not impossible) for multi cheating, and reward users who haven't yet donated, but do contribute in a positive way to the site, which may in turn lead to them actually wanting to donate.

---

That's a very interesting idea. Are there existing examples of non-donors who have 3+ stars? I guess I could do a database search, I'm just running out the door here.

http://www.stripcreator.com/comics/Tterb

theres an example.

The minimum star rating is a great step in the right direction! It puts current donors in the hot seat to make the right call on whether someone is contributing to the site enough to justify them being able to vote on others! As long as all the current donors and 3+ stars folks know about the way the system worked it could do a lot for making the voting system more robust against random flame trolls while also expanding it.

There are always downsides to these things though, and while I can't think of any off the top of my head we should all try to think about who the winners are and who the losers are if this change is made. That way we can see who would have an incentive to cheat and why.

Don't forget, no system is perfect. There will always be defects we're just trying to minimize them and come out with a better voting system.

Excellent discusions! I thank all of you for your excellent comments!

Also, no one needs to apologize for being passionate about something. We all love this site and when we remember why each of us is here we realize that we're all on the same team.

Using user ratings as prerequisites for voting gives people incentives to downvote other strippers as well as comics.  Also, if someone gets voted below rating ability, what happens to the comics he's already voted on?

I don't disapprove of this idea (in fact, with manny I don't really care about votes so much), but I thought I'd throw that out for discussion.

Maybe a time limit period of non-voting would help weed out trolls. You need to be an active member for a predetermined amount of time to make sure you arent another incarnation of story_teller. I don't know how possible this is or realistic, but its just another thought.

maybe people can apply for the voting privelidge as well as others by donating an unpredetermined amount of money.

maybe...

quote:

---

seanator wrote:

maybe people can apply for the voting privelidge as well as others by donating an unpredetermined amount of money.

---

5 dollars?

Brad, if you do the 3 star thing, please add in a clause to block out anyone with only 1 or 2 votes, or otherwise code in a mandatory waiting time from when their account is activated or something. That should largely stop abuse.

Honestly I dig the whole undonors can vote idea. I have been here since March 27, 2005 and I know my name isn't big around the fourms but I just figured that I should say something because I am a undonor with 3+ stars who has been here awhile but really if I wasn't poor as shit I would be a donor.. But what I guess I'm trying to say is free stuff is awesome and I, speaking for all the undonors with 3+ stars who have been here awhile, would be so grateful to be able to vote. I dont know if my pointless post will change anything today or maybe not tommorrow but hopefully some day I will see my grandchildren vote on a comic making website without donating.

Thank You.

quote:

---

not_Scyess wrote:
Using user ratings as prerequisites for voting gives people incentives to downvote other strippers as well as comics.

---

This is definitely a downside, I know some people take the star rating personally, so it could become more of an issue. Though if you've been rated by other members 10+ times and have a star rating of 3+, you'd likely need a few people to gang up on you to drop you below 3 stars.

quote:

---

Also, if someone gets voted below rating ability, what happens to the comics he's already voted on?

---

From a programming standpoint, it'd be easier to let the votes stand.

Like Brad was saying, if you had a 3+ star rating and 10+ votes it would be very difficult to bring you below the 3 star average.  This would be a good incentive for those who have reached that point to continue to produce quality comics and be an active contributor in the forums.  If they ever fell below the 3 star minimum then it would probably (I say that loosely) be for a good reason.  Such as a pattern of low grade comics.

As I understand it, Stripcreator is donation free for months on end.

quote:

---

Creature_From_Beyond wrote:
If they ever fell below the 3 star minimum then it would probably (I say that loosely) be for a good reason.  Such as a pattern of low grade comics.

---

Are you saying that you would rate me, as a user (as in, not the comic itself), "bad" if I made a string of comics that you didn't find funny enough? Is that what you mean by "a pattern of low grade comics" being justification for a user's rating to fall below three stars?

I think/hope he means that if someone suddenly needed a lobotomy and started pumping out comics that resemble bladdader's, over time we'd eventually all rate them "okay" and then "bad" if it was clear that thier humor would not return.

But then again I'm still 4 stars...

wel i've been reading attitudechicka's comics for 7 years and i've never liked them much but I have her rated good because she's an okay bird

quote:

---

attitudechicka wrote:

Are you saying that you would rate me, as a user (as in, not the comic itself), "bad" if I made a string of comics that you didn't find funny enough? Is that what you mean by "a pattern of low grade comics" being justification for a user's rating to fall below three stars?

---

I don't think comics HAVE to be funny to be good, so no.  But I think that it is up to each voting user to decide what their personal criteria is for voting on a user and what makes that user worthy of a good, okay, or bad vote.  Ultimately though this IS a comic creation site. While community involvement may be an important aspect of a users contributions to the site, if they are a terrible comic maker than I would feel justified in voting them down.

The forums used to be invite-only. Why not make the ability to vote invite-only? Of course, Donors would automatically be 'invited'.

If someone is active and constructive on the forums then they get to vote. All they need to do is apply and a mod can look at their posts and comics and decide whether to give them voting rights. 'Is not a troll' and 'Has sense of humour'  would be the main criteria.

damn.

I think what Seanator said was on the right track but when Brad said the reason Non-doners couldn't vote I thought yeah that seems pretty fair. Seeming i recently tryed to sign my cousin up with myn own e-mail account (the one I used for my account) It didn't work so I thought that The reason it wouldn't work was just because you can't use your email more than once. And now i know why. thanks Brad for telling everyone why. Oh And i think that we should allow comments on comics for non-donors that would be nice. i mean that would be easier for them,

I also happen to have 1 vote with twelve stars yet everybody seems to like my comics while my cousin somehow only made 3 comics yet he has 52 votes with 4 stars. I like how donors get at least a bit more privilege and i think it's very much worth the money and donation of the money.