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andydougan
March 18, 2002 12:18 PM

When I was feeding my cats this morning, they all kept getting distracted by something in the seemingly empty doorway. One of them even growled at this same spot. I've sometimes seen my cats fascinated by what appears to be empty space, but until today, only individually. Could it be that there are ghosts in my house which fall outside of a human's perceptible spectral range, but within a cat's?

Post #46616link

bunnerabb
March 18, 2002 12:54 PM

That or you farted by the doorway.

Post #46620link

KajunFirefly
March 18, 2002 5:43 PM

Perhaps they are seeing "Mothman", the prophecy of bad things to come, in which case I wouldn't worry about it. But when your cats start to see Richard Gere lurking in doorways, it's time to head for the hills.

Post #46640link

Jael
March 18, 2002 7:49 PM

quote:
When I was feeding my cats this morning, they all kept getting distracted by something in the seemingly empty doorway. One of them even growled at this same spot. I've sometimes seen my cats fascinated by what appears to be empty space, but until today, only individually. Could it be that there are ghosts in my house which fall outside of a human's perceptible spectral range, but within a cat's?

Okay, just so everyone knows I'm not weird psychic guru type person, but I definitely have some sort of weird radar for "unexplainable" otherworldish events.
And I am a firm believer that children and animals are conduits for a lot of this type of stuff. Adults too, given the right circumstances.

Andy, the former feline resident of my house did the same thing. At first I just thought it was an odd quirk. Then I noticed a pattern with her behavior.
I lived in a condo that had a small hallway that separated the bedroom and the bathroom. The cat would not cross that small 4x4 area during certain times of the day or night unless I picked her up. She would sit at the line where the doorframe was and just sat there in constant alert mode. Then at a certain time...she would cross it and go into whatever room her original destination was.

At night she always laid at the foot of the bed, facing the doorway watching almost a protective posture. There were times I could swear I heard someone walking across the carpet..and in that small section it was definitely a feeling of being watched.
When those moments came, she would hop off the bed and lay in the doorway and let out those low growls in her throat. Definitely, discomforting moments. In the mornings, she would wait until whatever blocked her way had moved, and she'd cross the area and go into other parts of the apt.

I thought maybe the place was wiggy. When I moved, to the new place, it stopped for a while. But then, she started doing it again, this time refusing to budge from the top landing of the stairs at night. In a way I thought of her as a watchcat. She passed away, but the new kitten has some intriguing behavior too. The first time she pulled that "begging for food from someone my owner can't see" things like out of Poltergeist. It creeped me out. My father who is always rational and logical sort, said that it is probably just that there is a draft or something that makes them like the spot.

I'm spookily inclined enough to believe differently.

P.S. Interesting thing I recently found out...objects such as antiques or the like often are thought to carry some sort of energy of their former owners. Since my house is plastered with dead people's furniture...it rather makes sense.

Post #46652link

DexX
March 18, 2002 9:05 PM

You never did finish that story about Fooferkitty and the ouija board. I told a story in the thread in which you originally posted those strips, about the first flat that Bec and I shared which definitely had something creepy going on, including (but not limited to) footsteps from no visible source travelling across the entire length of the flat, shadows on walls and floors cast by no visible person, and (in the scariest instance) a brief but frightening apparition seen by Bec.

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dcomposed
March 18, 2002 10:37 PM

maybe theres an insect or something the cat is looking at but you cant see it because you are looking for something bigger than say a moth or a bee.

Post #46659link

Jael
March 19, 2002 12:18 AM

quote:
You never did finish that story about Fooferkitty and the ouija board. I told a story in the thread in which you originally posted those strips, about the first flat that Bec and I shared which definitely had something creepy going on, including (but not limited to) footsteps from no visible source travelling across the entire length of the flat, shadows on walls and floors cast by no visible person, and (in the scariest instance) a brief but frightening apparition seen by Bec.

Yeah...the fooferkitty thing drained me..besides its hard to make something like that funny. I think the scariest thing in the old place, was having a voice coming out of the speaker saying my name at 3 am. The stereo or tv wasn't on. That and the footsteps. In this place, before Breezycat passed away, I had "something" coming up and touching me. I constantly get freaky stuff like that. I finally had a friend who's Native American and practicing Shaman come in and cleanse the place.

Post #46672link

wirthling
March 19, 2002 12:26 AM

quote:
I finally had a friend who's Native American and practicing Shaman come in and cleanse the place.

Does he do windows, too?

Post #46674link

Jael
March 19, 2002 2:44 AM

yeah...that whole voodoo "wax on wax off" thang ;)

Post #46683link

boorite
March 19, 2002 7:52 AM

Lay off the peyote, you mooks.

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Jael
March 19, 2002 7:57 AM

Hums..."you say "Pay oh tee.., I say Pe yot ee"

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boorite
March 19, 2002 4:10 PM

quote:
When I was feeding my cats this morning, they all kept getting distracted by something in the seemingly empty doorway. One of them even growled at this same spot. I've sometimes seen my cats fascinated by what appears to be empty space, but until today, only individually. Could it be that there are ghosts in my house which fall outside of a human's perceptible spectral range, but within a cat's?

Cats can certainly hear a lot of things we can't-- about an octave lower and two octaves higher than your typical adult human. It could be that there's an infra- or ultrasonic standing wave getting the cats' attention. These can be created by air-handling equipment or any other moving, vibrating machinery, or even by wind currents and lots of other things. Certain infrasonic frequencies are known to induce that "haunted" feeling and even hallucinations in humans, and at least one famous haunting has been solved by looking for standing waves (20 hz in this case).

Cats also might pay attention to sounds that don't interest us. A slightly squeaky hinge or house-settling noise might sound like prey to them.

Cats may also see things we don't, not because those things are invisible, but because we're not looking for them. Someone else suggested a small bug. It could be that, or anything that moves, like a swirl of dust, or even anything that looks like a bug or anything else that might interest a cat-- even if it doesn't look that way to you. For instance, the other week, my cat was staring intently at the bathroom door, his hair standing practically on end. There was nothing there, and no one in the bathroom, and no water running or anything. But he'd reach out a paw as if to probe something and then jerk it back as if shocked, making those weird bird-hunting-type vocalizations all the while. I spoke to him and then reached out to him, and he jumped backward, spitting and hissing, so suddenly and violently that he opened a big cut on my wrist. I think he'd been investigating a corner of a Kleenex that was sticking under the door. He'd decided it was evil and dangerous and thrilling.

People have always explained curious phenomena by reference to supernatural forces, sometimes I think because of a lack of imagination, other times because of a will to believe in the survival of bodily death. When rational explanations surface for their observations, they seldom discard the theory but instead reject the evidence or seek out new evidence that supports their conclusion. Starting with your conclusion and working backward to the evidence is sometimes called "a priori reasoning," and it signals a need to believe.

If I were going to evaluate a claim that there was a ghost around, and that the cat or others could perceive it, I'd have to ask certain questions, like, what's the proposed mechanism here? You mentioned spectra. Spectra of what? If light is bouncing off of it (making a shadow, as in DexX's example), then what is the light bouncing off of, and why shouldn't we therefore be able to see it, and how could a dead person make it happen? If it makes a sound, then let's speculate on what is causing compression and rarefaction of the elastic medium we call air, and-- again-- how this is linked to being a dead person.

One question I would have to ask is, if a disembodied human soul can effect changes on the physical environment, why does it ever need a body, and why can't we seem to do ghost tricks while living? Seems like it'd come in handy, right? You could send messages without a cell phone, spy on people invisibly, and all kinds of neat stuff.

A more basic question is why our minds go straight to supernatural explanations when confronted with weird events. It's one thing to say, "the cat sees something I don't see," and quite another to say "the cat sees the ghost of Mrs. Dinglethwaite." And I'm speaking not as a detached, cool, scientific observer, but as a person who has had hair-raising-- literally hair-raising-- experiences of the weird and strange and hard-to-explain kind. I've seen ghosts (or faries or aliens) and I'm scared of them. But there is always the possibility that I hallucinated, or that my perceptions tricked me.

Post #46761link

wirthling
March 19, 2002 4:21 PM

Killjoy.

Post #46764link

boorite
March 19, 2002 4:33 PM

Jael, I'm curious as to what kind of energy a person could imbue his furniture with, and how another person might sense it, and particularly how it could transmit anything of the former owner's personality. Seriously, let's make some wild speculations and see where we can go with them.

I have an alternative explanation. You said "objects like antiques and the like," and I thought, "yes, why is it usually antiques and the like?" I mean, why wouldn't a less obviously creepy-looking thing be just as likely to be haunted? Or if it's magnetism or something at work, why wouldn't we sense loudspeakers or other magnetic objects in the same way? And couldn't we devise some experiments using all kinds of objects that belonged to dead people to see if subjects experienced them as haunted? For that matter, why would it have to be dead people? Wouldn't you yourself leave "energy" in your furniture? Fresher energy, as well? So that a person sitting there would be as likely to sense you as the former owners? Where was I? Oh yeah, an alternative explanation: People perceive antiques as haunted because antiques look haunted.

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andydougan
March 19, 2002 4:34 PM

quote:
People have always explained curious phenomena by reference to supernatural forces, sometimes I think because of a lack of imagination, other times because of a will to believe in the survival of bodily death. When rational explanations surface for their observations, they seldom discard the theory but instead reject the evidence or seek out new evidence that supports their conclusion. Starting with your conclusion and working backward to the evidence is sometimes called "a priori reasoning," and it signals a need to believe.

Indeed - I was being pretty frivolous when I suggested it could have been a ghost, but I did consider the possibility that it could have been some other kind of phenomenon invisible to human beings. My cats have done things not unlike yours, treating inanimate objects as prey. I put this down to their individual imaginations, which is why I thought it strange that three cats would simultaneously react in the same manner to the same uninteresting doorway.

By the way, I agree with your views on ghosts. It's surprising that many otherwise rational people believe that there exist body-independent souls which carry with them intellect obviously dependent on the physical makeup of the brain.

Post #46766link

DexX
March 19, 2002 5:50 PM

I don't leap to conclusions on these kinds of topics. Most of the weird, creepy things I have experienced have been caused by perfectly reasonable phenomena. However, in that flat there were three separate events that I couldn't explain reasonably. I have done a lot of high school physics, so I know about light interference patterns and the like, but...

I had just finished my shower, and was just starting to dry meyself, when I clearly heard, in this order: our screen door open; our front door open; our screen door close; our front door close; soft footsteps across the carpeted living room; louder footsteps in the hallways right outside the bathroom; and finally loud, obviously female, clicking high-heel footsteps across the tiles kitchen. i figured Bec was home from work early, said hello, didn't get a reply, said hello again, still no reply. I was alone in the flat and the doors were locked.

Another occasion, standing in the kitchen, I saw a human-shaped shadow cast on the floor of the hallway, coming out of the bathroom. It stodd still, moved one way, moved the other way, then vanished. Yes, there were curtains on the window in there, but I was quite familiar with the kinds of shadows they cast.

The third event may have scared me, but it scared Bec very badly. In that flat our bed was up close, sideways, to a big window. One night I went to bed before Bec, and had the light off, so the only light was coming from the streetlight outside, slightly illuminating the curtains. I was snuggled up under the blankets, when Bec walked into the room (the door was opposite the window). She came in, talked to me, took a few more steps, then I could _hear_ that she had been frightened by something. She asked if I had just been sitting up in bed, and I replied that I hadn't - I had been curled up on my side, back to the door. She told me that when she came into the room, she had seen a silhouette - presumably me - sitting up in the bed, staring at her. The reason she had talked to me when she first came in was that the staring had made her uncomfortable, and she had said something like, "What's wrong?" When she had looked next, I was curled up on my side.

All three of these can be explained without any kind of recourse to supernatural phenomenon, but they were rather creepy at the time, and coupled with a shocking nightmare I had the first night we stayed there, gave me a very bad feeling about that flat. We weren't sorry to move out.

Post #46772link

Jael
March 20, 2002 2:03 AM

I'm with Dexx, even though my scientific side wants to find a "reason" for everything and sometimes has been able to, I've had too many very odd, strange experiences that cannot be proven away or explained. I don't believe that demons are going to infest my body and make me spew split pea soup or make me kill people in their name. There is a group here in Houston that "Ghost Hunts." They originally started out as a group of scientific minded folks from Rice U hell bent on proving some local "phenomena" was logically explained, and ended up trying to prove that the phenoma was otherworldly.

I read a cool book once about how it might not be "spirits of the dead" as we think of them...but our subconscious minds..."travelling." We aren't aware we are doing it and explains the whole "deja vu" thing or why we get a glimpse of figures that aren't supposed to be there. Someone just wandered into our conscious without intending to be seen. The whole "primordial man" way of communicating that is still ingrained in us, but we don't use it. Pretty interesting and it was written by a Catholic Priest/former science type figure.

My opinion it all boils down to whether you choose to believe it or not. If you don't then great, you won't be bothered. If you do, you might get a brush with something from time to time. And you can hone the skill to tune into whatever it is. Man tries to explain everything away...be it religion, ethics, etc. I feel sometimes you just have to throw it out the window and accept that you know nothing. Now if I can just get those little shadow people that seem to streak by in the wee hours of the morning..and the damn pookas that keep moving things around I'd be happy. ;)

Post #46807link

TheBlairZip
March 20, 2002 7:48 AM

We had always suspected that there was a supernatural presence in the house due to freaky occurances - things being knocked off shelves, sounds of movement in empty rooms, even glimpses of a shadowy figure moving down the staircase. Most times, we'll feel someone sit on the edge of our bed, in the middle of the night, and start gently shaking the bed...just enough to wake us up. A friend of ours from out of town actually saw a figure standing in the bedroom doorway, walk over to the bed, and sit down on the edge. Figuring it was one of us, he spoke out my roommates name. At that same moment, my roommate walked in and turned on the light, revealing that no one was in the room but him. The most recent occurance was the scariest for us, though:

We keep all the doors in our house closed at all times. My roommate had run over to local convenience store for 15 minutes, and when she came back every single door in the house was wide open...including the front door, which she had locked when she left. Every bedroom door, bathroom door, closet...every single door in the house. Nothing had been taken or moved, and there were no signs of a forced entry. The doors were just open and that was it.

Needless to say, this freaked our shit right out. We immediately called a friend of ours who is 'in tune' with the spirit world. He came over and had a private séance with our mysterious guest in the room where we've had the most activity. After about 45 minutes, he came out and told us that the ghost in our house is actually the spirit of an old Indian warrior that was cut down in his prime...right on the spot where our house was built. His spirit remains here because he refuses to believe that he is dead. When asked why he was trying to frighten us with his spooky deeds, he replied very simply, "I'm bored." We asked our friend if he would be able to send the ghost away, but he says that he would feel guilty about sending away a spirit that is still not ready to go. We said, "Well, we are ready for him to go. He's a fucking dead guy. Send him packing!" But no, the ghost remains.

Now, I told you that to tell you this: The cats that my ex-roommate kept in the house acted very much the same way. There were certain spots that they would avoid, as well. The biggest one was the spot on the stairs where I usually see the shadowy figure stand. They would leap over the same 2 steps every time they were on the stairs. We thought that the ghost was the cause for their strange and erratic behavior. It wasn't until later that we finally figured out that these kittens were actually just fucked in the head and enjoyed pissing and shitting everywhere except for their litterbox.

Post #46818link

boorite
March 20, 2002 1:00 PM

BlairZip: A million bucks says I can find your "ghost" and get rid of him in a couple of days!

This is a very interesting story, and I have no doubt that you're experiencing something that's hard to explain. This is excellent fodder for discussion-- classic really.

quote:
We had always suspected that there was a supernatural presence in the house due to freaky occurances - things being knocked off shelves, sounds of movement in empty rooms, even glimpses of a shadowy figure moving down the staircase.


Here's the first thing that should ring alarm bells. Freaky stuff happens, and we suspect a supernatural cause. Why should this suspicion be preferred over a rational one, like the cats or the roommates getting
up to mischief, or house noises, or tricks of perception, etc.? Your wording evidences a bias: Things do not "fall" off of shelves but are "knocked off"; sounds are not bumps or clicks or whatever but "sounds of movement." That's ascribing an awful lot to these events, and a skeptical observer might interpret them differently.

The "glimpse of a shadowy figure" is very common. Usually these things are grey and seen in the peripheral vision, and they disappear when looked at directly. The folks in the haunted lab I referred to earlier saw these all the time until they got rid of the 20 hz standing wave.

quote:
Most times, we'll feel someone sit on the edge of our bed, in the middle of the night, and start gently shaking the bed...just enough to wake us up. A friend of ours from out of town actually saw a figure standing in the bedroom doorway, walk over to the bed, and sit down on the edge.


See how these things tend to happen while you're lying in bed at night? Entirely consistent with a hypnagogic hallucination. I've had them. In fact, mine were exactly like the alien abduction experiences Whitley Streiber reported in his book Communion. But they happened a few decades before that book appeared, when I was five or six years old.

About all the doors being opened: Too bad that never happens when someone is there to see it! Anyway, it's quite a jump from "all the doors were opened while I was away" to "supernatural forces opened all the doors." Could've been a prankster, maybe an acquaintance who knew you were feeling spooked already. As for there being no sign of forced entry-- if you have to be a ghost to pull that off, then I must be a ghost!

Let's see that disembodied bastard do that trick when the floor is dusted with flour and we have video cameras running.

As for your sensitive friend and the story he came up with, here's an idea: Get a bunch of other mediums to come over and see what the spirits tell them. The mediums are not allowed to know you or talk to you or your friend, or each other, or the person running the experiment, who also must not know the story. A double-blind test.

Or get the medium to tell you something he couldn't possibly know.

I mean, he could have just made up that Indian warrior story, right?

Post #46888link

JrnymnNate
March 20, 2002 1:06 PM

Scully- I mean Boorite rules!

Post #46890link

KajunFirefly
March 20, 2002 1:14 PM

Holy shit, my underwear just flew off and floated out the window and when I looked out to see them land in the garden, someone had written "You've been wearing these since last summer!" in the grass.

Surely all you fellow cat owners have noticed that cats are generally quite insane creatures, I mean, if any of you try and tell me that your cat doesn't have little insane episodes where it will happily stalk then run away from random pieces of furniture then I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but that's a hamster you're raising there.

Sure, cats will stare at nothing and seem facinated by it, but that's just cats, they do that, live with it.

Post #46892link

boorite
March 20, 2002 2:06 PM

Yeah, just this morning, one of my cats jumped four feet in the air when he heard the toaster pop up.

Post #46901link

andydougan
March 20, 2002 2:15 PM

But it was their having a collective hallucination that seemed peculiar to me. Even so, I'm with our resident sceptic. This issue, like most, can be resolved by acknowledging the weirdness of cats.

Post #46902link

boorite
March 20, 2002 2:43 PM

quote:
My opinion it all boils down to whether you choose to believe it or not. If you don't then great, you won't be bothered.

Actually, I am bothered. I think that understanding how the world works is one of the most important human endeavors, and this particular point in history is no time to be careless about it. When any claims arise regarding reality, I think it's important to investigate them, and when something unexplained happens, it's important to find out what and why. I can't adopt a laissez-faire attitude in the face of so much sloppy thinking and outright fraud as we see emerging from mystical thinking.

quote:
If you do, you might get a brush with something from time to time.

I get them anyway! In fact, even being a skeptic, I'm very hesitant to casually say "show me," as if I'm immune to whatever is causing the believer's perceptions.

quote:
I feel sometimes you just have to throw it out the window and accept that you know nothing.

Why would I accept that? It isn't true. I mean, we don't know everything, but we know more than nothing, and we know a hell of a lot more than our superstitious ancestors. I'm not sure what you mean by "proving away" anything, but I don't like this idea of throwing rational inquiry out the window-- not when it comes to claims about the universe we live in.
quote:
Now if I can just get those little shadow people that seem to streak by in the wee hours of the morning
I told you: LAY OFF THE PEYOTE!!

Or pay-OHT-ee...

Post #46903link

boorite
March 20, 2002 2:50 PM

quote:
But it was their having a collective hallucination that seemed peculiar to me.
Who says they were hallucinating? Maybe they heard or saw something that you didn't notice. Or maybe one of them saw something, and the others noticed him seeing it. Try standing under a tree and staring intently up into the foliage (unless you live in Scotland): Without saying a word, you'll have several people looking up there with you. Cats do similarly.

Frequently, I find all three cats gathered around some spot, and I'm damned if I can tell why. Likewise, I'm sure that if they had the brains to form a question, they'd love to know why I'm always staring at perfectly uninteresting pieces of paper.

Post #46905link

boorite
March 20, 2002 3:38 PM

quote:
I had just finished my shower, and was just starting to dry meyself, when I clearly heard, in this order: our screen door open; our front door open; our screen door close; our front door close; soft footsteps across the carpeted living room; louder footsteps in the hallways right outside the bathroom; and finally loud, obviously female, clicking high-heel footsteps across the tiles kitchen. i figured Bec was home from work early, said hello, didn't get a reply, said hello again, still no reply. I was alone in the flat and the doors were locked.

I can explain. That was just your transvestite Viking biker boyfriend coming to phuck your butloude.

Post #46913link

boorite
March 20, 2002 3:41 PM

That post proves that one should wait at least half an hour between reading mr_congeniality's comics and posting on the forums.

Post #46914link

Jael
March 20, 2002 3:46 PM

Ya'll can argue it and have Tobor anally rape it to death to prove a scientific validity for yourselves, I choose to have my beliefs and even if they are not plausible to anyone other than myself. I can't prove anything nor do I want to..I prefer not to let skeptics ruin it. Scientists don't insult peoples intelligence..they just outprove it. Skeptics only bash you over the head about how right they are and everyone else is wrong without proving squat.

From now on I'll keep my sloppy thinking and laissez faire attitude to myself.

Post #46917link

boorite
March 20, 2002 4:32 PM

quote:
Ya'll can argue it and have Tobor anally rape it to death to prove a scientific validity for yourselves, I choose to have my beliefs and even if they are not plausible to anyone other than myself.

Clearly put.
quote:
Scientists don't insult peoples intelligence..they just outprove it.

They outprove people's intelligence?
quote:
Skeptics only bash you over the head about how right they are and everyone else is wrong without proving squat.

As one of the skeptics here, and probably the one to whom you're responding, I don't recall bashing you over the head or saying I'm right or everyone else is wrong. I do recall asking certain questions and expressing an interest in getting to the bottom of strange experiences. I said I think it's important, now more than ever. Now I understand that you're not interested in that kind of inquiry, but it's not nice to misrepresent your distinguished opposition.

I don't understand this whole thing about who's right and who's wrong. I mean, let's say my guess was that there's a standing wave in the house causing people to hallucinate. You say, OK, let's do some experiments to look for it. We don't find it. If it had been there, the tuning fork would vibrate or whatever, but it doesn't, so my guess goes out the window. I can't imagine taking it personally or thinking I'm being proven wrong and you're being proven right. That's just not part of my process of understanding the world.

Post #46919link

TheBlairZip
March 20, 2002 5:25 PM

quote:
Your wording evidences a bias: Things do not "fall" off of shelves but are "knocked off"; sounds are not bumps or clicks or whatever but "sounds of movement." That's ascribing an awful lot to these events, and a skeptical observer might interpret them differently.
Hey, I'm from Georgia. I don't say phrases like 'sounds of movement'. Fall off, knocked off, whatever...I saw it happen. I was in my living room, looked over at my desk, and the DVD's that were lying there just went straight into the floor. They were not stacked up in an unbalanced pile nor were they sitting on the edge of the desk. They were square in the middle of the damn desk, and then they slid up to the edge and fell right off into the floor.
quote:
The "glimpse of a shadowy figure" is very common. Usually these things are grey and seen in the peripheral vision, and they disappear when looked at directly. The folks in the haunted lab I referred to earlier saw these all the time until they got rid of the 20 hz standing wave.
Once again, I actually saw it. Yes, I noticed it in my peripheral vision at first, but turned my head and saw the shadow still moving up the stairs. I am the only one who's seen it on the stairs, but I'm not the only one who's seen it.
quote:
See how these things tend to happen while you're lying in bed at night?
They usually happen while lying in bed at night...but not always. It happens on the couches in the living room during broad daylight while wide awake, too. It happens when I'm sitting in my desk chair typing posts on this forum, too.
quote:
About all the doors being opened: Too bad that never happens when someone is there to see it! Anyway, it's quite a jump from "all the doors were opened while I was away" to "supernatural forces opened all the doors." Could've been a prankster, maybe an acquaintance who knew you were feeling spooked already.
Well, I don't know when the hell it happens to other folks, but it only happened to us once, and once is once too many, as far as I'm concerned. There is no fucking way that anyone could get into here without us knowing. There are no spare keys, two different sets of locks to get through on two seperate doors, and all of the windows are sealed and nailed shut.
quote:
As for there being no sign of forced entry-- if you have to be a ghost to pull that off, then I must be a ghost!
Oh, so it was you?
quote:
I mean, he could have just made up that Indian warrior story, right?
I didn't say I believed him...I just wanted the fucking thing gone! When he told me he could do it but wouldn't...then I knew he was probably full of shit. I just told it here cause I thought someone would get a kick out of it instead of having my entire story thrown back in my face like I'm a goddamn liar. I say this, and I think this is what Jael was getting at, because your remarks make you come across as more of a cynical asshole than a regular skeptic. The way you word your "certain questions" and how you show "expressing an interest in getting to the bottom of strange experiences" give more of a feeling that what you're really saying is "how feeble your minds must really be to actually let yourself believe all this mumbo jumbo." At least, that's what it sounds like to me. I don't mean to offend (and Jael, please correct me if I'm wrong), but that's how your comments come across.

Post #46924link

Jael
March 20, 2002 7:01 PM

Blair hit it.

Boo,
Whether you meant to or not, the little quips about sloppy thinking just peeved the hell out of me. Granted I am well aware I'm not Einstein, but I know damn well my thinking is pretty sharp. And for a fact we all know DexX isn't a sloppy thinker, I consider him one of the brightest markers in the bunch.

It did not come across as a friendly debate or sharing of ideas/experiences, it comes across as "I Boorite,think this is bunk, therefore, I'll tear apart everyone's statement and throw it back at them." And even when countered with the fact that people readily admit.."this is my opinion" it still gets blasted on a point-by-point basis like you're trying to render the opinion holder as useless as the opinion itself and a character flaw.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough before, I'm not saying you necessarily think this, or even meant it in that tone. That is how it came across to me, and apparently I am not alone in that. I'm all for playing devil's advocate or debating, but not at the expense of insulting people because of them.

P.S. feel free to blast and mock and tell me how bad my grammar sucks, I know this. lol

Post #46929link

DexX
March 20, 2002 8:52 PM

Boo, I didn't want to be the first to say it, but yeah... your posts came across as being a bit arrogant. I know you're a nice bloke, and did not intend any offence, but the implication of us being dumb and illogical was there in the text.

Anyway, I have stressed several times in this thread that I do not actually believe in the supernatiral. I believe in the possibility of it. You can brandish Occam's Razor all you like, but in this case, the "simplest explanation" may very well be that there are things which are 99.9% out of our range of perception that we are not fully-equipped to understand, and sometimes we fall into thos 0.1%situations and can perceive them. Sounds a lot simpler than a standing wave of electromagnetic radiation bouncing off a weather balloon and igniting marsh gas... :)

My personal theory is that, if these things are real, that they are not conscious beings or anything, but just "residue", of a sort. Ever noticed how a building can have a certain mood to it? The atmpsphere in a home can feel bad when family members are fighting, even if you don't know about it, stuff like that. I think people might leave impressions behind, especially if they live somewhere for a long time, love a place or a thing very much, or experience intense emotions. In this case, frightening apparitions would be caused by people picking up on these echoes or residue, whatever you want to call it.

Personally, I can't imagine a "ghost", sentient and wilful, expressing his rage at the world that denied him life by moving your coffee cup when you leave the room for a minute.

Post #46935link

boorite
March 21, 2002 8:59 AM

quote:
Fall off, knocked off, whatever...I saw it happen. I was in my living room, looked over at my desk, and the DVD's that were lying there just went straight into the floor. They were not stacked up in an unbalanced pile nor were they sitting on the edge of the desk. They were square in the middle of the damn desk, and then they slid up to the edge and fell right off into the floor.
There's a scientific term for that: "pretty fucked up."

If this kind of thing is going on in your house a lot, we should observe it systematically. It could be important.

quote:
Once again, I actually saw it. Yes, I noticed it in my peripheral vision at first, but turned my head and saw the shadow still moving up the stairs. I am the only one who's seen it on the stairs, but I'm not the only one who's seen it.
Don't you wonder what it is you saw?

quote:
They usually happen while lying in bed at night...but not always.
Yes, "tend to," as I said. They also tend to happen in poor lighting conditions, but not always.
quote:
It happens on the couches in the living room during broad daylight while wide awake, too.
Yes, I had a sighting while sitting in an armchair in a well-lit room once.
quote:
It happens when I'm sitting in my desk chair typing posts on this forum, too.
A ghostcam is called for. I'm quite serious. It's easy to set up and it makes a contribution to paranormal investigations. Why not try it?

quote:
There is no fucking way that anyone could get into here without us knowing. There are no spare keys, two different sets of locks to get through on two seperate doors, and all of the windows are sealed and nailed shut.
Those would be good places to start. I'd like to see if I could get into your place without your knowing. Also, it's hard to say for sure that there are no spare keys-- or that a known key wasn't used. The problem is that this only happened once, so it's now impossible to catch whatever did it, human or ghost or whatever.
quote:
quote:
As for there being no sign of forced entry-- if you have to be a ghost to pull that off, then I must be a ghost!
Oh, so it was you?
Could have been. Seriously, when I was in college, I did a lot of cat burglar stuff around campus. I knew how to get into locked, alarmed rooms on upper floors of locked buildings, but instead of stealing valuables, I'd rearrange stuff or take worthless things like pens and liquid paper, just to mystify the poor workers.
quote:
I didn't say I believed him...I just wanted the fucking thing gone! When he told me he could do it but wouldn't...then I knew he was probably full of shit.
Well, I told you-- I'll get rid of the damned thing!
quote:
I just told it here cause I thought someone would get a kick out of it instead of having my entire story thrown back in my face like I'm a goddamn liar.
Well, I got a kick out of it, and I don't think you're a goddamn liar. I told you, I've had experiences like that myself. Lots of people do.

I'm not going to argue that I'm not arrogant, because I'm not sure I'd win. Plus I don't really care. But I don't really see what's so arrogant about doubting and testing. I think that belief is actually more arrogant. Anyway, how about filming or otherwise carefully recording some of this stuff? It would be a boon. If you really do have a ghost, then believe me, there's nothing I'd love better than to prove it!

Post #46973link

JrnymnNate
March 21, 2002 9:37 AM

The question no one has asked here yet is:
"What was he smoking, and when did he smoke it?"

jk

Post #46980link

boorite
March 21, 2002 9:43 AM

quote:
Boo, I didn't want to be the first to say it, but yeah... your posts came across as being a bit arrogant.
Me? Shock!
quote:
I know you're a nice bloke
Do you really? Why would you prefer that explanation over the more straightforward one, viz: I'm really a jerk? If you claim that I'm a nice guy, then I would have to ask certain questions...
quote:
and did not intend any offence
uh, yeah, that's the ticket! No offense everyone! (Thanks, buddy.)
quote:
but the implication of us being dumb and illogical was there in the text.
Not you, DexX. Note I didn't have much to say about your claims, because you didn't make any. As for the others, well, I don't mean they're dumb. Hell, if they are, then so am I. But I may take a systematic approach to doubting their beliefs and interpretations of strange events.
quote:
Anyway, I have stressed several times in this thread that I do not actually believe in the supernatiral. I believe in the possibility of it.
I agree with this attitude, except for one quibble: Before I acknowledge the possibility of something (or allege its impossibility), I'd like to know what it is. Other than that, I'm with you. In fact, one driving reason for the kind of arrogant, cynical questions that I ask is the possibility of one day discovering something really new and astonishing and otherworldly.
quote:
Sounds a lot simpler than a standing wave of electromagnetic radiation bouncing off a weather balloon and igniting marsh gas... :)

Yeah, that's REAL FUNNY... until it happens to YOU!
quote:
My personal theory is that, if these things are real, that they are not conscious beings or anything, but just "residue", of a sort. Ever noticed how a building can have a certain mood to it? The atmpsphere in a home can feel bad when family members are fighting, even if you don't know about it, stuff like that. I think people might leave impressions behind, especially if they live somewhere for a long time, love a place or a thing very much, or experience intense emotions. In this case, frightening apparitions would be caused by people picking up on these echoes or residue, whatever you want to call it.
Sure, I'm willing to give that a go. Maybe people leave behind smells or pheromones or something, and others can pick them up and make something of them. Maybe it really is what's behind hauntings. I think that all hauntings that have been investigated turn out to have pretty straightforward (though sometimes surprising) explanations, but the idea that people leave some kind of impressions is interesting and, even better, testable.
quote:
Personally, I can't imagine a "ghost", sentient and wilful, expressing his rage at the world that denied him life by moving your coffee cup when you leave the room for a minute.
EXACTLY.

Post #46981link

wirthling
March 21, 2002 9:49 AM

I see dead people.

Post #46982link

evil_d
March 21, 2002 10:13 AM

My freshman year in college, during a floor-wide party, someone told one of my roommates that a fair portion of the floor was under the impression that the five of us in my room were Satanists or some such. I can't honestly say I know how anyone got that idea. The best guess I was ever able to come up with was that another girl on the floor, who was in my art class, had noticed that I'd hidden the letters 'e', 'v', 'i', and 'l' in one of my projects. But I'd actually chosen those letters because they spell four or five different words, depending on how you look at them, and anyway I never really expected anyone to notice.

Whatever its origins, once we heard this mostly baseless rumor, one of my roommates, a devout heathen at a Catholic school, decided to have a little fun with it. I drew a pentagram on a large sheet of paper I had from the aforementioned art class, and we posted it on our door (two points up, of course). My roommate got his bible and hung it in a noose (tied from string -- I'm not sure anyone but us realized it was supposed to be a noose) in front of the pentagram.

Our roomates didn't stop us, but they were a little uneasy about it. Over the next few days, whenever the blinds rattled or the door slammed shut (not rare occurrences), they blamed it on our display. After the second such incident, one of them said he'd take it down if anything else happened. I said okay.

He didn't have to, though, because someone else did it for him. One day the bible and string were gone, and the next, all that was left of the pentagram were a couple of corners of paper taped to the door. The only thing my heathen roommate said was, "I want my bible back -- it's the best piece of fiction in my collection."

I tell this not to offend anyone's beliefs or to take anyone's side, but just because I think it's an amusing and related anecdote.

Post #46984link

JrnymnNate
March 21, 2002 10:17 AM

Post #46986link

boorite
March 21, 2002 10:24 AM

quote:
Whether you meant to or not, the little quips about sloppy thinking just peeved the hell out of me.
Why? I didn't say you were guilty of sloppy thinking. I said I can't take the suggested "believe it or don't," laissez-faire attitude toward mysticism when there's so much sloppy thinking and outright fraud coming out of it. Isn't it true?

As to whether I meant to piss people off or not, I am aware that believers get mad when we go around questioning their claims, but that doesn't relieve me of the obligation, and it's their fault, really. Is that arrogant of me? Certainly no more arrogant than attacking someone for questioning your beliefs.

quote:
It did not come across as a friendly debate or sharing of ideas/experiences, it comes across as "I boorite,think this is bunk,
therefore, I'll tear apart everyone's statement and throw it back at them."

More like, I, boorite, suspect this is bunk, or rather that there is a rational explanation for these things, and therefore I'll tear apart the claims and throw them back at you to see how you stick them back together, and we'll do this back and forth and maybe in the process get close to the truth. Your characterization was fairly close, though! You say it like it's a bad thing.
quote:
And even when countered with the fact that people readily admit.."this is my opinion" it still gets blasted on a point-by-point basis like you're trying to render the opinion holder as useless as the
opinion itself and a character flaw.

Well, you'll have to point out where I said that, because I don't believe you. I think that's your embellishment. And it wasn't simply "this is my opinion." People said "such and such happened." And my question is, are you sure? What really happened? Is there some other explanation? Someone says, there is no way such and such could happen (e.g., getting into the house to open all the doors). That's not an IMHO kind of statement. It's a statement of fact and the kind of thing I'm inclined to question. So sue me.
quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough before, I'm not saying you necessarily think this, or even meant it in that tone.

Except for the part about thinking you're stupid, you're pretty close to right about my attitude. When you say that you choose your beliefs regardless of their plausibility to the rest of the world and that you're not interested in proof, I can hardly applaud it. That's not to say you're stupid (everyone believes things stubbornly and without evidence, and anyone can learn to be skeptical), and of course it's your right not to care what I think and to tell me to go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.
quote:
That is how it came across to me, and apparently I am not alone in that.

No, I've been doing this sort of thing for a long time, and I have tons of e-mail telling me what a mean smarty-pants I am. That hurts our feelings here at the Boorite Institute of Superior Intellect.
quote:
P.S. feel free to blast and mock and tell me how bad my grammar sucks, I know this. lol
Your grammar reflects the mind of a creature in a prehuman stage of evolution, not surprising given the table-knocking hogwash you espouse. Happy now? See what real arrogance is now?

Now see if these spirits of yours can predict me some Dow Jones and some NASDAQ, because damn I need to make some alimony payments.

Post #46987link

bunnerabb
March 21, 2002 10:37 AM

I still think that he just farted by the doorway.

Post #46989link

kaufman
March 21, 2002 10:41 AM

19114

Post #46990link

boorite
March 21, 2002 10:50 AM

I have a fun haunting tale. Back in college, I knew a sound engineer named Kurt, kind of a short roundish guy who always wore a vest and a tool belt and a little hat so that he looked like a cartoon fisherman. But he'd been a bomb disposal tech in the US Army Rangers, where he learned how to do all kinds of neat things, such as pick locks.

He lived in an apartment complex where Maintenance locked the laundry room at night. This was stupid, seeing as how the apartment dwellers were off earning their rent during the day, not lounging around watching their underwear tumble. So now and then Kurt would pick the padlock and open the laundry room for his friends. He could have left it open just to piss off the maintenance people, or closed it back so that they'd never know, but instead, he'd lock the padlock in the U-shaped thingie and then close the hasp over it, as if one of the maintenance guys had been really stupid when locking up. We always imagined them accusing each other of screwing up, but now I'm wondering if they ever thought the place haunted.

(My laundry sometimes smells like something died in it, but that's a different story.)

Kurt knew how to make lockpicks, and now and then he'd turn out a set for a friend and teach him how to use it. I never did learn, though. I always went over or around locks, never through them. Either way, love laughs at locks, and so did we in those days.

Post #46992link

boorite
March 21, 2002 10:53 AM

quote:

The young Boorite, showing an early penchant for arrogance.

Post #46993link

JrnymnNate
March 21, 2002 11:14 AM

Oh, I've been called worse by DexX and LadyJ. Problem was, it was my first time arguing outside the family. Now I can hack it.

Post #46995link

boorite
March 21, 2002 11:55 AM

quote:
I still think that he just farted by the doorway.
Preposterous. The existence of farts has not been proven. Wherever claims of farting arise, there is almost always a rational explanation, such as catalytic converters or barking spiders.

Gabe's gonna show up here in a few, and then I'll be off to Arizona for a week, so I won't be responding to any of this stuff for a while. Pile on!

And I really don't think any of you are stupid, especially those of you who agree with me.

Post #47000link

wirthling
March 21, 2002 11:56 AM

Are you still planning on hanging out at the bar until 7?

Post #47001link

andydougan
March 21, 2002 12:10 PM

quote:
quote:
It did not come across as a friendly debate or sharing of ideas/experiences, it comes across as "I boorite,think this is bunk,
therefore, I'll tear apart everyone's statement and throw it back at them."

More like, I, boorite, suspect this is bunk, or rather that there is a rational explanation for these things, and therefore I'll tear apart the claims and throw them back at you to see how you stick them back together, and we'll do this back and forth and maybe in the process get close to the truth. Your characterization was fairly close, though! You say it like it's a bad thing.

Precisely! "Tearing apart everyone's statement" is just a pejorative term for logicially assessing a person's beliefs and finding them wanting.
I've seen many cases where the logically defeated have nothing left to attack but the manner of the person who defeated them: for example, over here, the banning of foxhunting has been attacked by its opponents as a waste of parliamentary time which could be better spent on other things. Having been talked into a logical corner, they have to fall back on miserable retorts like that. I'm not morally equating the hunting lobby with the supernaturalists or anything: it's just a convenient comparison.

Nor am I saying that boorite has defeated the supernaturalists (doing so in a few messageboard posts would be quite a feat), but his arguments have been pretty lucid and rational. Replying to them with accusations of smugness does the other side no favours. If his contribution has seemed a bit arrogant, well, see past it and put forward counter-arguments. The rational will always seem arrogant compared to the irrational, even though, as boorite says, it's far more arrogant to cling to your own ingrained beliefs in the face of reason. We should not "accept that we know nothing": rather, we should strive to know more.

Anyway, some of these stories are pretty disturbing, particualry DexX's. My own isn't as dramatic as these, but I thought I'd subject you to it anyway...

The thing with the cats isn't the only mysterious event I've seen. Oh, no. When I was a nipper, I was on "holiday" with my family in a cottage in the Highlands. One night, I was coming down the staircase, when, through the glass door, I saw an old woman, just standing there looking into the house. My parents and sister, the only other people in the house, were in the front room. We were miles from anything resembling civilisation. The nearest road was on the other side of a large valley.

Is anyone still reading this, by the way?

It's strange, but I don't recall feeling unnerved at the time: perhaps the unknown is scarier when reported than when witnessed. After sitting on the stairs for *several minutes* looking at this person, who remained motionless and expressionless, I went to the front room and alerted my mum, who looked out the door. True to cliche, the apparition was gone.

Thinking about it now, it's not really *that* weird. It would be an odd thing to do, but I suppose someone could've just walked over here in pitch darkness and decided to peer into the house. Nonetheless, it's something I've never forgotten.

Oh, and once Charlie Chaplin and Elvis appeared in my room. But that's pretty commonplace.

Post #47002link

Jael
March 21, 2002 1:34 PM

quote:
well, see past it and put forward counter-arguments.

I find it extremely hard to believe that the girl doll from the Puppetmaster, could spit out a leech that big from her painted mouth. Call me a skeptic, but...

((For the record..I do find this extremely amusing... Reminds me of when I was always having to argue with my Dad as a teenager. That and the fact in a case over Spirit v Plausible Explanation, the PE is taken by a "Boo" Oh! The irony! hehe))

Can we talk about conspiracy theories now? I have a great picture of George W's death mask etched in a chemtrail!

Peace out...There's a warm spot in my fridge that needs explaining!

Post #47010link

JrnymnNate
March 21, 2002 2:25 PM

The black pope controls the world.
(not really, but some say so)
http://www.remnantofgod.org/

Post #47013link

TheBlairZip
March 21, 2002 3:59 PM

I'm not here to debate the plausibility of the supernatural. I was just posting a harmless 'ghost story' (and that is the term I choose to use, like it or not). I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about my experiences because A) they are my experiences and B) I don't want to try to rationalize them. They happened, and that is that.

quote:
If his contribution has seemed a bit arrogant, well, see past it and put forward counter-arguments.
I can't bring myself to see past it because I wasn't asking for my story to be completely picked apart, nor was I expecting to be made to look like some sort of irrational thinker and told that my "wording evidences a bias". I don't even know what the hell that means! But I do know that no one here knows me at all. Here are the facts: I do not believe in ghosts. I think that what most perceive as 'paranormal' is usually an over-active imagination...like watching a slasher flick at the cinema, then walking to your car thinking that the slasher is going to be there waiting for you, even though you know that it was just a movie.

Thus, I do not believe that there is actually a ghost/spirit/dead person in my house. It's just easier to laugh off any freaky occurance as "Oh, it's just the ghost" instead of trying to rationally explain it because I really don't care either way. What happens happens, and that's that. Now, if that attitude makes me come across as ignorant or arrogant or just a dumbass, then that's fine - that's how you perceive me. So now we can agree that we are all perceiving each other to be something that they either are or aren't. And, as we all should know, perception is in the mind's eye. Therefore, all our minds function differently. If we are all agreed on that point, then let's "see past it" and get on with next "ghost story" - which you can perceive however you like. It's a free forum. Do what you want...I don't care anymore.

That's all I wanted to say.

Post #47017link

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