Forum archives » Fights Go Here » Protests and Anti-War protestors

MikeyG
March 21, 2004 9:02 AM

Yesterday I took a quick ride down to NYC to march with the anti-occupation/anti-war protestors. It's amazing to see that so many people are concerned enough about their futures that they take an active hand in securing it.

Now, because I AM a New Yorker, I can't let such a great experience pass me by without a few complaints.

There were a lot of great causes being touted, one of which was the freedom of Palestine. There were tons of Palestinians and various cultured people calling for the end of Palestinian oppression. The problem was that they were so scattershot and disorganized it was comical. Stand in one place and every five minutes another lost-looking miniature Palestinian woman would walk by, screaming 'Flee Flee Palestine' (I think she meant 'free free Palestine, but the Babel Fish was on the fritz) while several younger Palestinian women echo her.

This was pretty indicative of the scene as well. Lots of little splinter groups, even as cloistered as 'The Northern Manhattan Neighbors' Association of Mothers Against War'. What's next? 'Guys Named Dave Who Were at 28th and 8th on Tuesday, July 7th, 1993 Who Are Usually On The Fence But Right Now are Antiwar'? If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?

The other real complaint was about white people. I realize the majority of people on this website are white, as am I. I'm very, very white. Not WASPy white, but paler than a wedding dress in a snowstorm. We also know that rich white men are pretty much the cause of all the bureaucracy and horrendous capitalism we see around us. Apparently, only dirty white people in wrinkled, filthy (yet outrageously expensive) clothing will hold hands, skip in a circle, chanting such garbage as 'Kum Ba Ya' . Seriously. There never seems to be a shortage of dumpy white chicks with bongos at these things, either. Nearly ALL the non-white people were standing in the periphery just kind of watching these numerous spectacles with a bemused/amused look in their eyes. As was I.

The worst thing? I realized that it seems to be that hippies are traditionally rich white people escaping their money. THESE hippies had UGG boots on, which live up to their name by being positively hideous, and go for upwards of a couple of hundred dollars. The ones NOT wearing UGGs? That staple of hippie footwear that we all know someone who owns a pair.

I can only hope the CEO of Birkenstock is a capitalist swine.

Post #128833link

Spankling
March 21, 2004 9:34 AM

This is the problem with democrats as a bunch. Republicans can be so single minded in their grab for power, wealth and world destruction. But dems collect causes like knick knacks.

FOCUS PEOPLE!

Post #128845link

possums
March 21, 2004 9:38 AM

I was at the one in Portland(Oregon), and I must say the turnout was great. About 7,000 people. There was a pocket of pro-Bushites... but naturally they were morons. "We Love Bush + Our Troops! SHUT UP AND GO HOME!!" and of course, the ever logic-lacking, "Besides and Nazism and Communism, war has never done ANYTHING." Of course, the communists helped "end" Nazism, and Nazism and Communism are still around. :P

I was also at the one in Los Angeles last year(two years?), and that was huge.

Post #128850link

andydougan
March 21, 2004 10:54 AM

Last "anti-war" demo I was at had them playing Give Peace a Chance, followed, with no intermittent pause, by a guy shouting "Victory to the intifada!"

Post #128869link

MikeyG
March 21, 2004 11:02 AM

quote:
Last "anti-war" demo I was at had them playing Give Peace a Chance, followed, with no intermittent pause, by a guy shouting "Victory to the intifada!"

Dude, all kidding aside, there were two white kids about six people to my left shouting the exact same thing.

I'm pretty sure they were joking, because their sign was spelled 'Intehfadda'.

Post #128872link

UnknownEric
March 21, 2004 12:44 PM

quote:
I'm pretty sure they were joking, because their sign was spelled 'Intehfadda'.
Intehfadda-da-vida, baby, don't you know that I'll AL-ways be true-ooh...

On a more serious note, as liberal, free-speech loving, and against the war as I am, there are these four guys who, every single day, stand on the same corner holding "War is not the answer!" signs. I just want to pull over and say, "Dudes, go home. The war ain't goin' anywhere at this point. There are more important things you could be doing right now. If you support Kerry, go canvass the neighborhood and build support for Kerry. If there are any pressing local issues, make some signs and protest them. But, come on now, stop with those same fucking signs you've had for almost a YEAR now. Get another cause, please!"

Post #128881link

MaKK_BeNN
March 21, 2004 1:30 PM

My understanding is that protesters basically do not have jobs or families. If you're that bored go get a job. Or a puppy. Or if you're too much of a dingbat to take care of a puppy, get a plant. Jesus Christ.

It seems kind of an odd time to protest the war, when the Iraqi people would be most vulnerable if we pulled out. Where was all this commotion before the war? What about all these self-righteous Democrats in Congress who voted for the war? This is just election-year pandering, because if anyone was actually thinking about the Iraqi people they'd understand the vacuum left by an immediate U.S. pullout would be filled by a deadly civil war.

Post #128883link

andydougan
March 21, 2004 1:36 PM

quote:
quote:
Last "anti-war" demo I was at had them playing Give Peace a Chance, followed, with no intermittent pause, by a guy shouting "Victory to the intifada!"

Dude, all kidding aside, there were two white kids about six people to my left shouting the exact same thing.

Yeah, but at the demo I was at, the guy was actually saying that from the platform! He was one of the official speakers! And later, there was a guy who said that Ariel Sharon was worse than Saddam Hussein and Hitler combined.

quote:
It seems kind of an odd time to protest the war, when the Iraqi people would be most vulnerable if we pulled out. Where was all this commotion before the war?

Uh. You didn't happen to notice the unprecedented anti-war demos all over the world for several months before it all kicked off?

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MaKK_BeNN
March 21, 2004 2:21 PM

I didn't notice an appreciable amount in the U.S.

Post #128888link

Spankling
March 21, 2004 7:04 PM

quote:
I didn't notice an appreciable amount in the U.S.
Mainstream media didn't cover it much but it was all over the place. You pay too much attention to CNN.

Post #128908link

MaKK_BeNN
March 21, 2004 7:38 PM

Yeah I should read more of Totally_Real_Anti_Zionist_Conspiracy_Hidden_News_Stories.com like you.

Post #128909link

Spankling
March 21, 2004 9:45 PM

quote:
Yeah I should read more of Totally_Real_Anti_Zionist_Conspiracy_Hidden_News_Stories.com like you.
Or at the least crawl out from under your bed.

Post #128920link

graykane
March 21, 2004 10:17 PM

quote:
This was pretty indicative of the scene as well. Lots of little splinter groups, even as cloistered as 'The Northern Manhattan Neighbors' Association of Mothers Against War'. What's next? 'Guys Named Dave Who Were at 28th and 8th on Tuesday, July 7th, 1993 Who Are Usually On The Fence But Right Now are Antiwar'? If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?

interestingly enough, i was just reading from Chomsky's Understanding Power, and it says:


The fact that [dissidence] doesn't have a center, and doesn't have a source, and doesn't have an organizational structure, that has both strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses are that people get the sense that they're alone-- because you don't see things happening down the street. And it's possible to maintain the illusion that there's no activism going on, because there's nothing dramatically visible, like huge demonstrations or something; occasionally there are, but not most of the time. And there's very little in the way of inter-communication, so all sorts of organizing can be happening in parallel, but it doesn't feed into itself and move on from there. Those are weaknesses. On the other hand, the strength is, it's very hard to crush-- because there's nothing to cut off: if one thing gets eliminated, something else just comes up to take its place. (3)

so, for what it's worth, while you/i/we may feel that this disunity in contesting "The Republicans" (i put that in quotes since i'm a republican; i just happen to be against this administration as well as the two-party system in general-- but that's another story) is self-defeating, perhaps it has a strength to it that signs for kerry wouldn't necessarily have. the disunified gestures can't end with an election or the flaws of its leadership.

quote:
quote:
I didn't notice an appreciable amount in the U.S.
Mainstream media didn't cover it much but it was all over the place. You pay too much attention to CNN.

from another Chomsky book i've started, Manufacturing Consent (i've never read chomsky before, it's just a coincidence i've started these two books at this time, and no, i don't believe everything i read by him), it says:

quote:
Since 1990, a wave of massive deals and rapid globalization have left the media industries further centralized in nine transnational conglomerates-- Disney, AOL Time Warner, Viacom (owner of CBS), News Corporation, Bertelsmann, General Electric (owner of NBC), Sony, AT&T-Liberty Media, and Vivendi Universal. These giants own all the world's major film studios, TV networks, and music companies, and a sizeable fraction of the most important cable channels, cable systems, magazines, major-market TV stations, and book publishers. The largest, the recently merged AOL Time Warner, has integrated the leading Internet portal into the traditional media system. Another fifteen firms round out the system, meaning that two dozen firms control nearly the entirety of media experienced by most U.S. citizens.... The United States and other Western governments have pressed the interests of their home-country firms eager to expand abroad, and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank have done the same, striving with considerable success to enlarge transnational corporate access to media markets across the globe. (xiii-xiv)

if we were to take this into consideration, then it would be pretty safe to assume that the withdrawl of Western occupation in the reorganization of Iraqui economy and governance would go against the business interests of major media corporations who look at Iraq as a potential market. this book coincidentally also goes on to say that a good number of protests and marches frequently go overlooked or misrepresented by the mainstream media because of how mainstream media's economic concerns frequently unconsciously govern its consideration of what's important or ideologically "right"/legitimate. (by the way, Manufacturing Consent builds an interesting and well-documented-- albeit, admittedly at times flawed-- case for its claims with extensive details and documentations, for those that are interested in such reading.)

in any case, reuters (where cnn gets its news from) did cover at least the NY protests, and i live in Oxford, MS, and there were protests even here in this ultra-conservative town of 10,000 inhabitants. so, i have to imagine that the US had quite a bit of its own protests against the occupation in Iraq, despite the insignificant numbers indicated (i don't think any news attempted to report actual or even potential numbers in the greater US, just the "thousands" in NY) in mainstream news.

Post #128927link

MaKK_BeNN
March 22, 2004 1:01 AM

quote:
Or at the least crawl out from under your bed.

So you're saying there wasn't a marked lack of protests in the United States preceding the war, and you can offer tangible evidence of this?

Post #128930link

MaKK_BeNN
March 22, 2004 3:14 AM

Great people you guys have on your side by the way.

Post #128935link

graykane
March 22, 2004 5:31 AM

quote:
So you're saying there wasn't a marked lack of protests in the United States preceding the war, and you can offer tangible evidence of this?

http://themoderntribune.com/seatle_anti-war_protests_2003.htm

http://www.jcphome.com/images/sfprotest/SFprotest.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60A16FB3A5E0C758DDDAB0894DB404482

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)

this last link appears more comprehensive. last year, i was in charlottesville, VA (very small university town), and there were multiple protest marches there prior to the war. my family was in ft. lauderdale, FL, and they witnesses it both there and in miami.

Post #128943link

boorite
March 22, 2004 6:15 AM

quote:
So you're saying there wasn't a marked lack of protests in the United States preceding the war, and you can offer tangible evidence of this?

On the eve of the war, between 40,000 and 100,000 protesters marched in DC ("Optimistic War Protesters Keep Pressure on Bush; Diplomatic Setbacks For Military Strike Lift Crowd's Hopes." Washington Post, 16 March 2003, pg A11.) At the same time, rallies were happening in US cities all over the country ("Protesters in U.S. Cities Join Antiwar Voices Heard Round the World." Same page.)

On the preceding January 18, the largest war protest since the Vietnam war drew "an awful lot of people" according to District police ("Crowd Estimates: 30,000 to 500,000; But Who's Counting? No One Officially." WashPost, 19 January 2003, p. A15).

On the preceding October 26, that is, of 2002, DC hosted another rally of some note ("100,000 Rally, March Against War in Iraq." WashPost, 27 October 2002, front page).

And so on. 10s or 100s of thousands marched on several occasions in the Nation's Capital, in the largest such demonstrations in decades, and you didn't notice?

Post #128947link

kaufman
March 22, 2004 6:58 AM

quote:
Great people you guys have on your side by the way.
Typical of you just to throw out a dismissive argument like that. But the truth is, the WTC didn't do much for NYC. Those buildings were kind of ugly and without character (not to mention a good distance off Midtown). The Empire State Building was a far more charismatic skyline-topper, with a lot more personality, and was a lot more tourist-friendly. So even if that sign was a bit coarse and off-topic, it does hold more than a grain of truth. New York was the greatest city in the universe before the twin towers went up, and it still is.

Post #128956link

MikeyG
March 22, 2004 7:19 AM

quote:
New York was the greatest city in the universe before the twin towers went up, and it still is.

Kaufman, whether you want it or not, you've now got my eternal respect.

The World Trade Center, for all it 'did' for the landscape, was exactly what the terrorists who attacked it thought it was: A symbol of American capitalism. It was just another marker of New York City, really. It became a symbol of 'freedom' after it was destroyed, but in essence it was much the symbol of the opposite before it became a 'martyr building'.

We've never NEEDED symbols to identify this city, even though we've had countless, and without that particular one New York is still a hell of a place. We've got capitalist, gaudy, themed restaurants and we've got gay high schools. Gay St. Patricks's Day parades and St. Patrick's Cathedral. Liberal and conservative, yuppies and hippies, Palestinians and Jews, we've got it all together in NYC. Fuck you if you don't like it.

Post #128963link

boorite
March 22, 2004 10:58 AM

Nobody is interested in New York and nobody cares.

Post #129011link

boorite
March 22, 2004 10:59 AM

Post #129013link

User #16352
March 22, 2004 11:05 AM

Start spreadin' the news!....

Post #129015link

jes_lawson
March 22, 2004 11:12 AM

quote:
... we've got it all together in NYC. Fuck you if you don't like it.

Spoken like a true New Yorker.

Post #129019link

MaKK_BeNN
March 22, 2004 11:35 AM

quote:
And so on. 10s or 100s of thousands marched on several occasions in the Nation's Capital, in the largest such demonstrations in decades, and you didn't notice?

Nope! I guess they don't matter, like the protests this weekend (which no one will remember since it broke news on Saturday). Ha ha.

Post #129022link

andydougan
March 22, 2004 3:01 PM

OMG they killed Saruman!

Jack Straw, our foreign secretary, described Israel's action as "unacceptable and unjust". Which is a bit rich coming from him.

Post #129052link

andydougan
March 22, 2004 5:05 PM

Oops. Meant to put that in politix.

Post #129082link

not_Scyess
March 22, 2004 10:06 PM

Wow am I late to this conversation. Don't read the forums for one bloody weekend...

quote:
Yesterday I took a quick ride down to NYC to march with the anti-occupation/anti-war protestors. It's amazing to see that so many people are concerned enough about their futures that they take an active hand in securing it.
I rather agree what maak so ineloquently stated -- most protestors I've seen are just out there protesting because they're too lazy, apathetic, or stupid to actually DO anything. It's easy to grab a sign and show up somewhere. Then they go home and get baked.

This is why, unlike the integration protests in the 50's and 60's, pretty much no one cares when protests happen now. They're more like social events. And what "freeing" "Palestine" has anything to do with Iraqi occupation is beyond me.

quote:
There were tons of Palestinians and various cultured people calling for the end of Palestinian oppression. The problem was that they were so scattershot and disorganized it was comical.
A lot like the Palestinian state. >>>duck<<<

quote:
This was pretty indicative of the scene as well. Lots of little splinter groups, even as cloistered as 'The Northern Manhattan Neighbors' Association of Mothers Against War'. What's next? 'Guys Named Dave Who Were at 28th and 8th on Tuesday, July 7th, 1993 Who Are Usually On The Fence But Right Now are Antiwar'?
This is a pet peeve of mine. People like to segregate themselves into tinier and tinier little groups until it pretty much means nothing and just sort of serves as a social club. I first noticed it in college when I saw the "Asian Christian Association." What the hell does being Christian have to do with being Asain? What does being Asian have to do with being Christian? Can't these idiot northern Manhattan neighbors find an actual group to join? Hell...

quote:
If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?
How very un-politically-correct of you.

quote:
We also know that rich white men are pretty much the cause of all the bureaucracy and horrendous capitalism we see around us.
This is just insipid. The only reason rich white men are responsible for anything is because they kept everyone else from having rights for so long. Very, very soon -- and now, to a large extent -- you can start blaming the bureaucracy and "horrendous capitalism" (which brought you the Internet, by the way) on rich Latino women, or rich black Jews, if it makes you happy.

quote:
The worst thing? I realized that it seems to be that hippies are traditionally rich white people escaping their money. THESE hippies had UGG boots on, which live up to their name by being positively hideous, and go for upwards of a couple of hundred dollars.
Sorry, hippies, like bell bottoms, are abominations from the past which are here to stay. I doubt we'll ever be rid of them in some form. And as long as they're around the causes they support (probably without really understanding them) will be subject to annoying straw man arguments like mAAk made with that picture.

quote:
I can only hope the CEO of Birkenstock is a capitalist swine.
In that, at least, you can take comfort.

Post #129124link

not_Scyess
March 22, 2004 10:07 PM

Having posted that, I also wish to acknowledge that there is going to be no way I can keep up with the inevitable growth this thread will have, and I reserve the right to stop replying when there are several pages between where my last post was and where my next one would be.

Post #129125link

MikeyG
March 23, 2004 5:40 AM

quote:
quote:
If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?
How very un-politically-correct of you.

How so?

quote:
quote:
We also know that rich white men are pretty much the cause of all the bureaucracy and horrendous capitalism we see around us.

This is just insipid. The only reason rich white men are responsible for anything is because they kept everyone else from having rights for so long. Very, very soon -- and now, to a large extent -- you can start blaming the bureaucracy and "horrendous capitalism" (which brought you the Internet, by the way) on rich Latino women, or rich black Jews, if it makes you happy.

How is that insipid? You're agreeing with me by being more specific.

The captialism you're claiming brought me to the internet is something we've all got to deal with. There is a little capitalist in all of us because humans adapt. In order to survive, we've had to accept a certain amount of capitalism into our personalities. It's still horrendous, even though as of now it's necessary. What brought me to the internet is a need for information, which is largely controlled and censored commodity in capitalist circles.

Saying capitalism brought me to the internet is like saying George W. Bush was a good thing because he gave people a common enemy to loathe.

Blaming anyone other than rich white men for the state of things in America is moot. Blame the initiators, not the stoolies who've been forced to become what initally oppressed them in order to 'thrive'.

quote:
quote:
The worst thing? I realized that it seems to be that hippies are traditionally rich white people escaping their money. THESE hippies had UGG boots on, which live up to their name by being positively hideous, and go for upwards of a couple of hundred dollars.

Sorry, hippies, like bell bottoms, are abominations from the past which are here to stay. I doubt we'll ever be rid of them in some form. And as long as they're around the causes they support (probably without really understanding them) will be subject to annoying straw man arguments like mAAk made with that picture.

I wouldn't go as far as to call them abominations, but they come close. Has anyone else noticed that most hippies are actually children of affluent families?

Post #129154link

boorite
March 23, 2004 5:47 AM

quote:
...you can start blaming the bureaucracy and "horrendous capitalism" (which brought you the Internet, by the way)...

No, the internet was brought to you by Washington and American tax dollars, specifically by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). Hooray for government spending!

Post #129155link

MikeyG
March 23, 2004 6:02 AM

quote:
No, the internet was brought to you by Washington and American tax dollars, specifically by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). Hooray for government spending!

Nuh-uh. It was brought to us by Al Gore.

Post #129158link

boorite
March 23, 2004 6:25 AM

No, the commercial internet that we know and love was brought to you by Al Gore.

Post #129159link

MaKK_BeNN
March 23, 2004 1:48 PM

quote:
I rather agree what maak so ineloquently stated..

Are you saying I don't have eloquence...FAG???

Yes I agree protests are just fun social time for people with a pretend-conscience. Let's all have a whining contest the most pathetic person wins.

Anyhoo this is totally already out of the news cycle, it didn't even make it to Sunday so once again truth and justice wins forever amen.

Post #129209link

not_Scyess
March 23, 2004 4:14 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?
How very un-politically-correct of you.

How so?

Don't get me started.

quote:
quote:
We also know that rich white men are pretty much the cause of all the bureaucracy and horrendous capitalism we see around us.
makes you happy.

How is that insipid? You're agreeing with me by being more specific.

It's my anti-Michael Moore reflex. However, it's pretty obvious that you can't really disagree with a tautology like "the people in charge of the government are the source of all the problems caused by the government."

quote:
Saying capitalism brought me to the internet is like saying George W. Bush was a good thing because he gave people a common enemy to loathe.
Er, he just recently fell below a 50% approval rating in the US for the first time. But it's not quite an apt analogy -- the Internet is fun and useful, whereas loathing is generally unpleasant and counterproductive.

quote:
I wouldn't go as far as to call them abominations, but they come close. Has anyone else noticed that most hippies are actually children of affluent families?

My sister is the epitome of that exact situation.

quote:
No, the internet was brought to you by Washington and American tax dollars, specifically by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). Hooray for government spending!
I figured one of you people would jump on that one. DARPA may have invented the technology necessary for building the Internet, but its ubiquity and scale would never, ever have been possible without capitalism.

Does the government provide Internet access to your house? How many packets going to and from your house do you think skip privately owned routers entirely?

Post #129221link

MikeyG
March 24, 2004 6:30 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
If we're going to segregate ourselves so bloody religiously, how are we ever supposed to bring our diversity together to seriously affect change?
How very un-politically-correct of you.

How so?

Don't get me started.

Well, I apologize for pulling your ripcord, but I really want to know what is so politically incorrect about wanting people to stop breaking themselves off into splinter groups so our collective differences can intertwine to become strengths?

Post #129294link

andydougan
March 24, 2004 10:10 AM

quote:
quote:
No, the internet was brought to you by Washington and American tax dollars, specifically by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). Hooray for government spending!
I figured one of you people would jump on that one. DARPA may have invented the technology necessary for building the Internet, but its ubiquity and scale would never, ever have been possible without capitalism.

Does the government provide Internet access to your house? How many packets going to and from your house do you think skip privately owned routers entirely?



I'm not sure the private sector's hijacking of a publicly-created technology counts as them "bringing us" the internet.

Post #129341link

MaKK_BeNN
March 24, 2004 2:07 PM

It does count as "bringing you the Internet" when the only way to "use" the "Internet" before was to have critical civil defense data you needed backed up on off-site locations using government super-computers.

Post #129382link

boorite
March 25, 2004 10:41 AM

Or be a college student.

Post #129519link

MaKK_BeNN
March 25, 2004 2:06 PM

College students were allowed to use ARPA net for personal interchanges?

The U.S. government has implemented a lot of technology before the market made the technology affordable, but unless it's something that the market cannot sustain but is a dire public need (like the Postal Service) you have to wait until commerce brings it to you. Asking how many data packets are made possible by the government is, however, misleading; I think the phone lines are public property in some respect, cable companies are franchised by local governments, wireless tranmissions are regulated by the federal government and etc. The ARPA net aside in at least this respect the Internet is a hybrid of the open market and government facilitation.

quote:
In my day all we had was ARPA net and no one was complain'n and there weren't all these cunt trolls around causing trouble neither I just got laid all the time and I had a full head of hair.

Post #129541link

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