Forum archives » Fights Go Here » This is your war. This is your war on drugs.

wirthling
February 5, 2002 12:01 PM

55343

Comments?

Post #42195link

Spankling
February 5, 2002 12:09 PM

quote:
Comments?
Maybe he should go after that evil do'er niece of his. Also, how much of the Northern Alliance funding has come from drug money? And what of his dad's snug relationship with Manuel Noriega? And what about TOBOR's mouth blasting probe of Dick Cheney?

Post #42196link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:26 PM

I thought Osama got all his money from his rich oil baron father... maybe we should ban hereditary wealth... My parents aren't leaving me much more than an old couch anyway... damn cheap bastitches

Post #42200link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:32 PM

I thought Osama got all his money from his rich oil baron father... maybe we should ban hereditary wealth... My parents aren't leaving me much more than an old couch anyway... damn cheap bastitches

Post #42203link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:33 PM

I have doubleposted... may the wrath of many forumusers fall upon me like large pendulous... ummmmm... baby grand pianos.

Post #42204link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:33 PM

I have doubleposted... may the wrath of many forumusers fall upon me like large pendulous... ummmmm... baby grand pianos.

Post #42205link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:35 PM

I have doubleposted... may the wrath of many forumusers fall upon me like large pendulous... ummmmm... baby grand pianos.

Post #42206link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 12:36 PM

something is seriously wrong with my browser

Post #42208link

andydougan
February 5, 2002 12:48 PM

Perhaps you should stop using it, then.

Post #42212link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 1:07 PM

just switched back to IE... that's what I get for using an opera beta...

But to the point of this thread:
1. Does anyone think Osama Bin Laden is really dead of renal failure?
2. Does it matter anyway?
3. Does anyone other than me think Bush is a little too Gung-Ho with his little red "Smite" button?
4. Didja know the US actually GAVE Osama anti aircraft rockets to fend off the russians when they were trying to dig into Afghanistan... They promised to use them against the russkies... HA...
"No Mr.President, cross my heart and hope to die we won't do anything BAD with these missile launchers"

Post #42216link

skagg
February 5, 2002 1:17 PM

he also gets alot of money from being about the only producer in the world of gum arabic found in those oh so tasty sweets such as rowntrees fruit pastilles

mmmmm, gum arabic

Post #42219link

wirthling
February 5, 2002 1:22 PM

quote:
he also gets alot of money from being about the only producer in the world of gum arabic

Well, not exactly.

Post #42221link

skagg
February 5, 2002 2:29 PM

well he used to, so i guess theres some truth in it

oh who am i kidding? the tv lied to me

AGAIN!

why oh why?

it keeps bloody doing this y'know?

Post #42234link

Tom_O_Bedlam
February 5, 2002 4:02 PM

My war on drugs would involve a lot more tanks. And fewer 'Drugs Czars'.

Post #42242link

wirthling
February 5, 2002 4:41 PM

55411

Post #42245link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 4:41 PM

I say legalize anything with roughly the same level of intoxication as alcohol. Make it illegal to be high and disorderly, drive under the influence (It already is anyway) make sure the appropriate counseling is available for those who get addicted instead of using drugs recreationally.

When there's no money in it, there's no crime.

And run the heroin and crack dealers over slowly with a riding lawnmower. Back up and do wheelies on the dealers who sell to kids.

Post #42247link

andydougan
February 5, 2002 6:01 PM

quote:
My war on drugs would involve a lot more tanks. And fewer 'Drugs Czars'.

I'd like there to be a war on Mothers Against Drugs. With napalm.

Post #42267link

djsparkydog
February 5, 2002 8:21 PM

Personally I'm drug free except for my drinking habit and endless chain-smoking... but that's just a techie thing to do.

However, If you bake, fry, roll, or sautee, fine with me. Don't drive, don't make an ass out of yourself in public(Unless it's funny) and don't do anything that could conceivably kill you in one hit.

Unless you're Ru Paul.

In that case the first needles on me.

Post #42296link

Drexle
February 5, 2002 11:08 PM

Yeah, you pretty much summed up my feelings on the whole thing, Wirthling. I guess that means I suck too.

Post #42311link

boorite
February 8, 2002 11:55 AM

The US created Afghan Islamism. The Soviets had a puppet government in Afghanistan, and so Washington formed, equipped, and trained a 100,000 man army composed of the most radical Afghan Islamists they could find. This was calculated to precipitate a Soviet invasion. Washington wanted to give the Soviet Union its own Vietnam. They succeeded-- Afghanistan was destroyed, just like Vietnam.

After the Soviets pulled out, the terror networks we created set their sights on the US presence, particularly in Saudi Arabia.

It is no secret that we created radical Islamism in Afghanistan. Brzezinski, Carter's National Security Advisor, has been bragging about it for years. He's actually proud of it. Read all about it here.

Note that Brzezinski has no regrets about precipitating a war that destroyed a country we were pretending to defend. To him, Afghanistan and its people are worthless except as pawns in the superpowers' struggle. That is very striking, as is his lack of concern over the terrorist threat he created. Also noteworthy is his casual admission that he and the rest of the Carter administration were lying about it for 18 years.

The comparison to Vietnam is apt. The conventional view in the US media is that Vietnam was under attack, and we came to its defense, but eventually failed in our noble cause, at great cost to ourselves. This is exactly parallel to what the Soviets said about Afghanistan, though unlike us, their government eventually apologized. Anyway, we call the Soviets' action an invasion, an attack on the people it claimed to be defending, one that destroyed the country and put it at the mercy of the worst possible elements there. By calling Afghanistan the Soviet Union's Vietnam, Brzezinski is saying that we invaded Vietnam on pretense of defending it, then left the place in ruins. Accurate-- though not consistent with the mainstream America the Victim stance. The main difference from the Soviets' war is that there was no superpower presence drawing us into Vietnam.

What is most interesting of all is the total disappearance of this crucial fact from US media coverage of post 9-11. Don't you think the American public could make better sense of the situation if they realized we essentially created bin Laden? Wouldn't they want to know? Instead we get stories about John Walker Lindh's shoe size.

Post #42552link

JrnymnNate
February 8, 2002 12:41 PM

Boorite is responsible for a new conspiracy theorist attitude I've recently taken and a newfound distrust of the US Government.

About drugs- remember, it's the "War on Some Drugs".

Post #42555link

boorite
February 8, 2002 1:20 PM

I'm always glad to help make America a more patriotic place (in the Patrick Henry sense). I guess you could call these crimes conspiracies, but the stories I tell aren't really conspiracy theories in the perjorative sense. I mean, the facts are acknowledged. I get them from mainstream sources. It's just that official dogma plays up certain things and plays down or ignores others, leadng to extremely screwy, if self-serving, explanations for world events.

Post #42559link

kramer_vs_kramer
February 8, 2002 1:36 PM

Yeah, it's not so much "A conspiracy" as just plain history. A friend ofmine is doing a night school course on US foreign policy and how they regularly smack down developing countries just for a cheap laugh.

Post #42562link

boorite
February 8, 2002 1:46 PM

tAk it all niacragua biches iam rapping u!!1

Post #42563link

boorite
February 8, 2002 2:29 PM

Hokay, I commented earlier on the near-total post 9-11 silence regarding Brzezinski's fondly-remembered role in creating the monsters we are currently annihilating, but I was only guessing that there was no coverage.

So I just did a Lexis-Nexis search of major newspaper stories on Afghanistan where Brzezinski was mentioned anywhere in the article. Several mentioned his or the Carter administration's backing of Mujahadeen but left out crucial details, essentially getting the story exactly wrong. For example, at least one story regurgitated the old theory that B. himself debunked, namely that we began support after the Soviet invasion. You might say that at least these stories discuss our role in creating bin Laden, but we are talking about a couple of stories out of many thousands, and not in the NYT but in papers like the The Seattle Times and St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Not too impressive.

Two-- count 'em-- two stories fully recalled Brzezinski's startling historical revision. One was in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (September 23, 2001, p. A12) and was highly critical of US policy. The other appeared in The Baltimore Sun (Dec 9, 2001, p. 1F) and was highly critical also-- of the Afghans, for their "widespread tendency... to blame everyone else, except their fellow countrymen, for the problems of two decades."

quote:
President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski still boasts about how U.S. covert action helped prompt the Soviet Union's 1979 invasion of Afghanistan. The United States and Saudi Arabia then financed years of armed resistance, but after the Soviets withdrew, the United States tended to look the other way while the victorious mujahedeen factions fought it out among themselves, reducing much of Kabul to dust.


I've learned that on the rare occasions when an uncomfortable, largely suppressed fact is admitted in a mainstream newspaper, it is almost always followed by a "but." I would be rich if I could find anyone sucker enough to take a bet on it. Anyway, right on cue:

quote:
Yet, no matter who has pulled the strings, Afghans themselves are responsible for most of the mischief from 1990 onward. And until Afghans own up to their role in this national tragedy, they'll be more prone than ever to keep repeating their well-armed errors.

"There is a sort of disconnect in terms of anyone saying, 'Well, we've done this to ourselves,'" says Larry Goodson, an authority on Afghanistan and a professor of international relations at Bentley College in Massachusetts. "There is a tendency to see all of this as something that the outside world has done."



So we goad the Russians (now our allies) into largely destroying the country; we create a fanatical army, which after the war proceeds to destroy the rest of the country while we look on. And the main moral failing here belongs to the Afghans, for not realizing that they did it all to themselves. Remarkable.

This is why the uncomfortable facts are usually simply avoided. The party line just looks too ridiculous in view of them.

Brzezinski was interviewed in several stories and even wrote a few high-profile editorials himself on the subject of Afghanistan, but he didn't seem too eager to recall his 1998 boast that he got Afghan Islamism rolling. I wonder why.

Foreign newspapers had no trouble remembering Brzezinski's boasts and seeing the connection to 9-11.
Several stories in The Irish Times, The Guardian, The Independent, and, for some reason, The Straits Times (Singapore) make the point rather strongly.

It's quite a comment on our liberal, free press when it is outperformed by Singapore's.

I went back to 1998 and found that not one, single, mainstream American newspaper as much as mentioned Brzezinski's comments about Afghanistan. Not one.

A search for "Lewinsky," however, aborted because it would return over 1,000 stories.

Post #42566link

KajunFirefly
February 8, 2002 7:57 PM

quote:
A search for "Lewinsky," however, aborted because it would return over 1,000 stories.
Man, you kick ass!

Post #42582link

wirthling
February 8, 2002 8:01 PM

I'm extremely jealous of boorite's Lexis-Nexis access. They still charge a boatload for that service, don't they?

Post #42585link

Spankling
February 8, 2002 9:32 PM

quote:
I'm extremely jealous of boorite's Lexis-Nexis access. They still charge a boatload for that service, don't they?
I'm extremely jealous of boorite's ability to put together the facts so they don't sound like ranting. I bet he even keeps the spittle in his mouth when he says this stuff. I gotta learn to do that. Maybe then people will take the truth seriously.

Post #42593link

boorite
February 9, 2002 6:56 AM

Wirthling, you can get access to Lexis-Nexis either by enrolling in a course on a subscribing campus, or by going to a library on such a campus. You live pretty close to UMBC-- you could use L/N there.

But the problem is that most people-- even the few who know how to do the research and are inclined to criticize policy-- are way too busy to drive half an hour and spend hours searching these databases. That's why propaganda can work even in a free and open information environment. It's the sheer weight and volume of the claims rather than their plausibility.

Spankles, most of the time, the spittle stays in my mouth, except when I'm really hungry or drunk or both. Then you have to keep your distance.

But really, the facts speak so strongly that it's unnecessary to embellish them with emotional filigree. I do it anyway, but it's unnecessary. Simple recitation of the facts is usually enough to elicit outrage from apologists for the state. Check it out: Next party you go to, try saying that the US invaded Vietnam. This straightforward description of uncontroversial historical fact will instantly make you a Commie lunatic in the eyes of some.

It's especially fun if there are journalists at the party.

Post #42638link

djsparkydog
February 9, 2002 5:42 PM

Boorite... I don't know you, but I like you.

I just had an almost identical conversation with my co-workers today... I mention Brzezinski and I get this glazed look from 8 people, followed by one person attempting to fake knowing what I was talking about.

Apparently if it doesn't happen in the US in the last ten minutes the average populous just doesn't care.

Post #42706link

boorite
February 11, 2002 7:48 AM

I just had a most interesting Sunday evening. Sitting at the bar in Kramerbooks in DC, I got into a conversation with a real, live Associated Press reporter. She'd been a foreign correspondent in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, and she told me the Saudis treated her like dirt because she was a woman. Anyway, the most interesting part was when I brought up Brzezinski. Although this reporter sometimes reads Le Nouvel Observateur, she was completely unaware of what had happened in Afghanistan under the Carter administration. She seemed outraged about it and told me she would bring it up with her pals at AP, the Post, and the NYT.

Maybe this will go to show that you can make a difference just by reading up and talking about stuff to anyone who'll listen. I could not believe that I was actually sitting there having a conversation with an AP correspondent and telling her stuff that pissed her off. It was like a dream. I'll have to hang around Washington more often.

She also said the Washington Post was a shitty place to work because they basically hire all these kids for cheap and they write crap news. That sure explains a lot.

Post #42849link

wirthling
February 11, 2002 11:47 AM

Is this a joke?

Excerpt:

"A report in the Washington Post on Monday said the individuals hit in the strike had been peasants collecting scrap metal.

American officials said last week they believed the targets were al-Qaida members, in part because of their Arab-style dress.

The Feb. 4 Hellfire missile strike was conducted by a CIA-operated Predator drone and an unknown number of people were killed.

"We do not know who were the individuals at the strike site," Stufflebeem said, adding at another point, "The indications were there, that there was something untoward that we needed to make go away."

The admiral declined to specify what was occurring, citing concerns about the secrecy of intelligence operations. He said it may take some time to be able to determine who might have been hit in the strike."

Let's see--they don't know who these people were but they were dressed like Arabs and they may have been doing something "untoward." Yeah, better kill 'em just in case. Sheesh.

Post #42891link

boorite
February 11, 2002 1:00 PM

Same thing happened with some frequency in Kosovo.

Post #42898link

pita
February 11, 2002 3:43 PM

Post #42930link

Haxx0r_K1ng
February 11, 2002 5:10 PM

quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/10/international/asia/10AFGH.html?

+he US M1l1t@ry @ppe@r@ntly h@s s0me pretty 733+ sk1llz.

*S1gh...*

Post #42945link

Gumby
February 22, 2002 7:23 PM

Thanks for playing!

Winners don't do drugs!

Capcom

Post #44031link

Spankling
February 22, 2002 8:32 PM

quote:
Winners don't do drugs!
If pot is a drug then you might as well add sugar, caffeine, chocolate and turkey to the list. But at least I wasn't as big of a stoner as the current president of the USA. Or at least I have no arrest record to prove it.

Post #44043link

KajunFirefly
February 23, 2002 4:04 AM

I don't do drugs, I just smoke weed.

Post #44052link

wirthling
March 13, 2002 10:53 PM

I just saw a hilarious commercial. There's a woman talking about her daughter. At the end, she says something like, "And she doesn't take drugs. I know, because I ask."

HAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAAAA!!!

*cough*

HAHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAAHAAHAAAA!!!

Post #46235link

djsparkydog
March 14, 2002 2:00 PM

I think that may be funny enough to get forwarded to my newsgroup... I'm going to go find that commercial.

Post #46288link

boorite
March 15, 2002 12:33 PM

"Sweetie, do you take drugs?"

"You bet your ass I do, bitch. How else am I going to put up with you and El Generalissimo over there? Oops, I mean, no I never touch the shit."

"Good."

"I am so stoned."

Post #46394link

DexX
March 15, 2002 9:29 PM

"Honey, do you take drugs?"

"What? No way!"

"Good, dear, that's nice to know..."

"If I tried to take my dealer's wares, he'd break my fucking fingers. I have to pay for that shit!"

Post #46433link

fuzzyman
March 16, 2002 1:50 PM

"Honey, do you take drugs?"

"No."

"That's good, dear. DAMN! We're out of beer!! Goddammit, I need a cigarette..."

Post #46469link

Kevin_Keegans_Perm
March 21, 2002 4:13 PM

"Honey , do you take drugs?"

"Hell no Mom"

"Well , do your friends , the pink elephants , take drugs"?

"Mom , can i have a puppy?"

Post #47018link

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