Okay.... It's the old IRC l337 speak thing, but it has it's roots in one common factor: Everybody on the internet seems to be the bastard offspring of Albert Einstien and Madame Curie. Stanford-Binet scores like phone numbers, all just smirking while all of the other -obviously inferior- folks on the net struggle to keep up with their brilliance.

Ho hum.

So....

Top Ten List:

Who really did, in your mind, have elite skills that set them over and above others? Who in history or contemporary society has earned your respect for their stunningly brilliant accomplishments in their field?

Just ten.

Here's mine:

10 - The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

He was an orator and a social activist of staggering abilities who came along when he was needed, and was so profoundly feared by his enemies that they risked martyring him as opposed to letting him continue to speak. High praise for a man of peace.

09 - Peter Gabriel

An incandescantly brilliant musician who went off the beaten path, built a house there and brought back songs of devotion, passion, joy and profound sorrow from Africa and elsewhere. And it's danceable.

08 - Albert Einstien

Sorted out chunks of the universe that most of us can't even wrap our heads around at all. Not bad for a kid who flunked math.

07 - Jesus of Nazareth

A carpenter and a renegade, some might argue failed, rabbi who told people that all they had to do was treat people like they wanted to be treated, play fair, and that faith can save you when there's nothing else to hold on to. They nailed him to a tree for it. You may or may not buy the Son of God thing, but the guy has had the most profound effect on humanity of any person in the last two-thousand years.

06 - Sir Winston Churchill

He commanded the Royal Navy, became an MP, told the Prime Minister and everybody else to kiss his arse when he was chided for warning the world that Hitler was a no-good sonofabitch and that England should prepare for war. Re-appointed as the head of the Royal Navy once the shit hit the fan and became Prime Minister soon thereafter. Led England through the whole of WWII. Roundly acknowledged to be a pain in the arse, but told people "Yes, but I am a great man", and they roundly agreed.

05 - John Lennon

Slum kid starts a band, writes songs that change the world, marries for love, murdered by a lunatic. Pretty astounding career for a Liverpool dock rat from Mendips.

04 - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

Wove odd and engaging tales of impossible characters in ridiculous situations in whom we all could see a bit of ourselves. Never wrote a bad book, IMHO.

03 - Abraham Lincoln

Self-taught. Dirt fucking poor. Became an attorney. Became president. Despite a less than co-operative cabinet, a country ready to rip at the seams and a wife who was about a dozen crackers short of an hors d'ouvres tray, flatly stated that things that are wrong are wrong and correcting them costs what it costs. That freedom mattered for everybody. Probably the last guy in the Whitehouse who was not a bought-and-paid-for charlatan. Several statues in his honour. Etc...

02 - Robert Noyce / Jack St. Clair Kilby

Invented the microchip. A lot of people talk about changing the world, but... Damn.

01 - Pablo Picasso

Artist, pain in the arse, treated his women like blow-up dolls, tempermental, snotty. Painted some of the most brilliant and moving works of art in history. Go figure.

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He commanded the Royal Navy, became an MP, told the Prime Minister and everybody else to kiss his arse when he was chided for warning the world that Hitler was a no-good sonofabitch and that England should prepare for war. Re-appointed as the head of the Royal Navy once the shit hit the fan and became Prime Minister soon thereafter. Led England through the whole of WWII.

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Meanwhile, the Scots were led by the Amazing Jock McHaggis, the Irish by that leprechaun off the Lucky Charms box, and the Welsh were led by Bazilla.

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Come on Kramer, Scotland weren't in the war, all those people just blew up on their own, and the buildings fell down out of boredom.

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Come on Kramer, Scotland weren't in the war, all those people just blew up on their own, and the buildings fell down out of boredom.

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Top Ten List:

Who really did, in your mind, have elite skills that set them over and above others? Who in history or contemporary society has earned your respect for their stunningly brilliant accomplishments in their field?

Just ten.

Here's mine:

10 - The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

He was an orator and a social activist of staggering abilities who came along when he was needed, and was so profoundly feared by his enemies that they risked martyring him as opposed to letting him continue to speak. High praise for a man of peace.

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05 - John Lennon

Slum kid starts a band, writes songs that change the world, marries for love, murdered by a lunatic. Pretty astounding career for a Liverpool dock rat from Mendips.

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Most of the people who really changed the world will be unknowns. I suppose Matt Groening's quite good, though.

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05 - John Lennon

Slum kid starts a band, writes songs that change the world, marries for love, murdered by a lunatic. Pretty astounding career for a Liverpool dock rat from Mendips.

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I'm sure that probably tosses up some obligatory PC feminist flags on to the pitch from where you're sitting. I just said what I meant. That's still legal here.

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Kurt Cobain blew his brains out. Elvis Presley was slowly killed by his manager. Marilyn Monroe was either killed by the CIA or manic depression. The death certificate says "suicide". James Dean died in a car accident after a few good films.

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I didn't say you were, but I'm guessing that people would disagree with some of my choices, like I did with yours, and I'd get offended by their objections , like you did with mine.

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Look out, Andrea Dworkin! Kajun's on the case!

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Interestingly enough though Bunner, I notice that there are no women in your list.

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Yeah. Sonofabitch. How about that? Maybe the list will be different tomorrow... You can post women if you'd like. None immediately occurred to me. I'm sure that probably tosses up some obligatory PC feminist flags on to the pitch from where you're sitting. I just said what I meant. That's still legal here.

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With all due respect, you're giving yourself a lot of credit here.

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I think Brad needs to be on that list somewhere.

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09 - Peter Gabriel

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...I meant that if you die young, people still love and remember the person you were, as opposed to watch you slowly became an old has-been and lose respect for you. Lennon might be making crap techno records like Cher nowadays.

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That "...in their field" part thankfully eliminates the need to compare the apples and oranges of different fields. Here's who I think would be the most likely victims of the daylight pickoff play were they the baserunner and the shortstop the other members of their field:

10. Lincoln - Not only the best president in my opinion, but also endowed with a strength of character never matched before or since.

9. Martin Luther King - He gets my nod for public speaking skills. MLK could say "Big Mac, Fries, and a strawBERRY shake." and I'd get chills.

8. Alexander - I don't know a lot about him other than he used to own a big chunk of the world. Put that on a resume.

7. Beethoven - Someone who's staying power is measured in centuries.

6. Michael Jordan - I have never seen anyone more apt at imposing his will. Michael Jordan willed wins.

5. Jesus Christ - A philosophy of kindness that's resonated with billions.

4. Freud - Not only the psychoanalytical technique, but also the Id-Ego-Superego dilineation of the psyche.

3. Babe Ruth - In 1919 Babe Ruth hit 29 homeruns. That was a higher homerun count than 10 of the other 15 TEAMS in the Majors at the time.

2. Darwin - Darwin didn't evolve his field, he created it.

1. Isaac Newton - Unlike Darwin, Newton didn't create a field. He created two - Physics and Calculus. If Einstein was Man of the Century, Newton was Man of the Millenium.

I haven't thought up my own yet - but have comments on this good list.

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6. Michael Jordan - I have never seen anyone more apt at imposing his will. Michael Jordan willed wins.

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I can't be arsed to do a whole list (damn, I'm starting to talk like you people!). I agree with a lot of the choices (Lincoln, Newton, etc.) but I would eliminate all athletes in favor of list would include:

- Thomas Jefferson
- Carl Sagan
- Albert Einstein
- The guy who invented the plow.

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1. Isaac Newton - Unlike Darwin, Newton didn't create a field. He created two - Physics and Calculus. If Einstein was Man of the Century, Newton was Man of the Millenium.

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If I had to pick one important popular musical figure from the last fifty years, it'd have to be Pete Seeger. Tireless, courageous, prolific, generous-- more people picked up guitars and sang because of Seeger than probably anyone. What would popular music look like without his work? I wonder what Bob Dylan or John Lennon would have become if Seeger hadn't laid the way? What would the British Invasion have been without the revival of interest in American folk and blues, led largely by him? And he had the balls to stand up to McCarthy.

While we're on pop music giants, how about Jimi Hendrix, who pretty much invented everything worth doing with a cranked electric guitar? Or Chet Atkins, or Roger McGuinn? Peter Gabriel or even John Lennon don't belong on the same page with those guys...

...in my extremely humble, never-contentious opinion.

Or if you're a songwriter, and you want to feel small, check the heft of Bob Dylan's catalog. Then try Woody Guthrie's, if you can lift it.

Shoot, all I've done is talk about late 20th century popular music. I'll have to come back later with, like, Shakespeare and shit.

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I...like...balls

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You forgot to decloak, boo.

Then again, the Beatles' experimentation did blow rock music wide open. In fact, for better or worse, they may have invented "rock music." Before that, it was just rock 'n' roll. So whatever.

Decloak? Oops. Well, everyone knows who MrSelectiveQuote is. Say the word and I'll email you the password. (It used to be public until some turdmunch pissed all over it.)

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Then again, the Beatles' experimentation did blow rock music wide open. In fact, for better or worse, they may have invented "rock music." Before that, it was just rock 'n' roll. So whatever.

Decloak? Oops. Well, everyone knows who MrSelectiveQuote is. Say the word and I'll email you the password. (It used to be public until some turdmunch pissed all over it.)

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Take that back, or I swear to God I'll bury this stapler in your fucking head.

The beatles may of invented rock moosic but its been transmogrified and morfed alot into different types and styles. I would go for Sum 41 and Blink 182 but not the insane lunatic mad fucked up Slipknot style.

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The beatles may of invented rock moosic

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He wrote referring to the greats that came before him, "If I have seen far it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton was the world's first technical writer. He took the insights of others and worded them succinctly. I say this in his praise. That is a fine and underrated skill.

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Has anyone mentioned Joan of Arc yet? The only personal of either gender to lead a nation to victory over an occupying force at the age of 16.

But mostly I go with a collection of the above.

And Gandhi... and Buddha... And Rudolph Steiner... and Chief Joseph... and for my Bohemian roots, Vaclav Havel (the old letch).

And Mel Blanc and Chuck Jones and Tex Avry.

Did someone say Mark Twain? He's in there with Kurt V. And whoever did Shakespear's stuff.

And the Myan that discovered zero.

And my Gandpa for leaving the candybars on top of his porno collection when I ws growning up.

Some of my heros...

Patton
Bruce Lee
Hesus Christo(JC)
Shawn Fanning
Lance Cottrell
Nathan Hale

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And the Myan that discovered zero.

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The concept of zero as a number is a Persian/Arabic invention. Our whole number system has been borrowed from theirs, which is why you may have heard the term "Arabic numerals".

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Numbers aren't a concept or an invention, but a discovery. Just as someone didn't invent the stars, or a rock, or gabe's loose loose godawful loose mother.

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Well... that's the thing... zero is not a thing - it is the absence of a thing. A numerical system in which the lack of units of a certain power can be place-held by a character that means "there is nothing here" really was an extraordinary achievement in modern thinking. Such a system is an invention in my mind, not a discovery.

You're both right. The root of "invent" means "to discover." Originally, there was probably little distinction between the two, and then the concept of "inventor" was invented.

But just because the root of a word has the same meaning as the other word in this case, doesn't mean that it's the same thing.
The word "invent" could have had same meaning as "discover" in its origional form, but today it means something entirely different...

Invent offers distinction to an individual that preforms this feat, and usualy conveys the image that it couldn't have been done without them. It was non-existing, but a posible concept. To discover it, however, means that its been there all along and that anyone could have done the same thing.

In my opinion, for this case, all numbers exist and there are infinate ways they are inter-related and you can tie them together. This is one of the reasons they dont give nobel prizes to mathematicians; once a breakthough is reached, theres no stop to the sentance- you can go on and on elaborating on the concepts you've discovered and not reach an end anytime soon. In fact you just create more problems.

I'd think that the concept of 0 is just a reference point for other thought- the absence of something has always existed[outer space(or is outer space empty gah!)], and 0 is nothing more than a way to describe that. It's like a new word to describe a particular instance or property that everyone knows about... I.E. Doh!

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In my opinion, for this case, all numbers exist and there are infinate ways they are inter-related and you can tie them together. This is one of the reasons they dont give nobel prizes to mathematicians; once a breakthough is reached, theres no stop to the sentance- you can go on and on elaborating on the concepts you've discovered and not reach an end anytime soon. In fact you just create more problems.

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Well I'm just saying that they don't recognize that for other nobel sciences....

That's just what I've heard about why there would be no prize for math... but I'm not sure. Anyone know?

And don't tell us the stories about the women.

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But just because the root of a word has the same meaning as the other word in this case, doesn't mean that it's the same thing.
The word "invent" could have had same meaning as "discover" in its origional form, but today it means something entirely different...

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Invent offers distinction to an individual that preforms this feat, and usualy conveys the image that it couldn't have been done without them. It was non-existing, but a posible concept. To discover it, however, means that its been there all along and that anyone could have done the same thing.

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But just because the root of a word has the same meaning as the other word in this case, doesn't mean that it's the same thing.
The word "invent" could have had same meaning as "discover" in its origional form, but today it means something entirely different...

Invent offers distinction to an individual that preforms this feat, and usualy conveys the image that it couldn't have been done without them. It was non-existing, but a posible concept. To discover it, however, means that its been there all along and that anyone could have done the same thing.

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My mom is crying now. I hope you're all happy.

I was listening to NPR the other day and they had an interesting story about the guy who invented television. I'd never heard of him, and apparently no one else really had either. He was some hick who happened to be particularly bright.

It sounds as though he got dicked out of a lot of moolah.

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story085.htm

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where the words originally came from is irrelevant when debating whether a thing is best-described by one or the other.

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Oh. I think I get the distinction now (sheepish grin)

I guess it flows with philosophy (as many things do). Is everything that is possible already exist somewhere and is simply waiting to be defined in our own terms? Or do we *actually* create things of our own invention? Christians believe that god created the world... do we rise to God's level by creating a computer? I think that the majesty of creation is not only that it is out of nothing(in God's case) but the complexities of it. I think it'd will take eons to fully define every property of every thing in the universe( and to figure out what else there might be.

As for the idea of 0 as a number being a new concept and could be invented, I agree with DexX. But I also get what you're saying now, boorite, that the term can mean the same thing in these case.

Another thought to consider is that, perhaps its not that we're inventing or discovering anything but merely duplicating everything that already exists(the case of the computer for example). Numbers would follow this as they'd just be a representation of data in a very simple form. Like kaufman said "Mathematicians *invent* ways to organize and view things." We're just organizing things that already work a certain way to now fit with a new task that also can be solved theoretically but is being practically done with these things(technology).

I'm not sure where I'm going now and I've lost my train of thought so I'll just shut up.

This reminds me of an old doonsbury from the 80's where duke is talking to zonker and he says, "The most extraordinary chain of events can be set in motion by the most banal incident!"

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My mom is crying now. I hope you're all happy.

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Think about the internal combustion engine. While chemical combustion is a natural process that nobody invented, the idea of using a series of small explosions, locked inside a metal box, to drive a motor, and then building such a machine... I don't see how this could be viewed as a "discovery" - last time I checked, turbo twin cam v8 engines don't exist in nature. I think that inventions in this category show quite clearly the semantic difference between the two words.

That said, the two are inextricably mingled. Generally speaking, invention naturall follows discovery, and it can be difficult to tell them apart. Somebody discovers magnetism, someone else discovers the magnetic properties of the earth, and somebody puts these two ideas together and invents the compass. Somebody discovers that potato cooked in oil gets very crunchy, someone else discovers that the thinner you slice it, the crunchier it gets, so someone else invents crunchy potato chips.

The way I see it, some things fall cleanly into either "discovery" or "invention", but some sit in a fuzzy area in between, especially things like polymers, which are the result of natural chemical reactions, but would rarely occur in nature.