*heavy sigh*

The Bible's nowhere near as contradictory as many people claim. Besides, the Old Testament is pretty much worthless these days. Jesus himself basically said that anything he taught overrode the Law of Moses. Before the arrival of the Messiah, people tried to save themselves by sticking to The Law, but nobody can ever be perfect. The whole point of Jesus coming to Earth was to say, "Don't worry about it guys - follow the rules as best you can, but if you make a mess of it you can fall back on me."

One of the things about the Catholic Church that bugs me more than anything is that I didn't find out until I was an adult (from a Baptist) exactly why Jesus came to Earth, why He died, and exactly what we got out of the whole thing. It is all elegantly simple, but I fear that most Catholics just don't get it, because no-one has ever explained it to them properly.

I am annoyed by other things in the Church, especially the veneration of Saints (they're just people, not Gods! If you want to pray, pray to GOD!!!) and other bullshit that contradicts teachings in the Bible. Jesus said, "You don't need to pray to anyone else, just pray to me or God." The Church says, "Pray to Mary, pray to Saint Ralph of Whyalla K-Mart...". That shits me greatly.

But I must not rant...

---
This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

I say worship whatever you see fit.
I worship no one.
I really don't worship a God who would punish me for the sins done by someone he created.
I just live, and be happy as possible.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

The Bible's nowhere near as contradictory as many people claim. Besides, the Old Testament is pretty much worthless these days. Jesus himself basically said that anything he taught overrode the Law of Moses.

Actually, he said that he wasn't overriding the previous teaching, only completing it. He wasn't abolishing the old testament, as many modern christians like to think in order to disavow some apparent contradictions.

There are many arguments people can make for a god. Creation indicating a creator, as bunnerabb said is one. The old anecdote was that someone doesn't stumble upon a watch lying in the forest and think, "Wow, this watch came out of the ground." Instead they think the complexity of the watch indicates a craftsman, a creator. A good argument, but there are good arguments against it.

First cause is the strongest argument for a god in my opinion. Evolution says that everything comes from something. If you trace this back far enough, you'll encounter a first. Where did that first come from? The big bang? Where did that come from? A strong argument, but there are strong arguments against it.

But I'm not gonna give them. Pythagoras once said something like, "If there's no god and you believe in one, then you're no worse off than if you didn't. However, if there's a god and you believe in him, you're saved. If there's a god and you don't believe in him, you're screwed. So the thinking man should believe in god." I haven't taken this advice, but it has influenced me never to try to convince others there is no god. In fact it was one of the saddest days in my life when I stopped believing in god. But, alas, the world still spins...

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

Yknow, anyone who really follows the tenets of their religion is going to act like a decent person, which is good enough for me.

Anyway, something from earlier in this thread gave me an idea for another comic in this series, so here are words that will be never spoken again in the history of the universe: "DexX, you inspired me."

http://www.stripcreator.com/view.php?ID=13591

Spirit guide, part 4 by NeoVid 4-27-01

Bob of Nazareth has digressed into telling Jon his life story... This is really... interesting, but... And then when I got the raise at Denny's, all everyone said was, "Your brother walked on water today." You're really bitter, aren't you? Hey, who wouldn't be? They say I can't exist, since Mary was a virgin until she died... ...And Joseph was really depressed all the time, right? How'd you know?

---
"Only things I approve of should exist." -some guy on the internet

I find that religion brings to mind an awful lot of thought, but it's difficult to get it written down. It doesn't tend to come out in one clear, coherent chunk, and I end up writing reams of seemingly randomly connected points. Then I get frustrated and delete it all.

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

But I'm gonna try anyway. The piece I just wrote and then chucked was questioning the idea of being 'saved'. I was bothered by something (Remember that I'm not professing any great knowledge of the subject. Everything I've learned has been from bits and pieces I've gotten here and there rather than anything formal like Sunday school or the like.)

If I understand correctly, a person could spend the better part of their life being bad. Beating up kids in the playground, stealing their lunch money, kicking dogs, tearing tags off of mattresses, beating their wife, stealing, lying, cheating, murdering, etc. etc. Then somewhere down the road they could realize they've been a complete shit and find religion. After admitting what a bastard they were early in life, they can be cleansed of their sins, allowing them a sure spot in Heaven for all eternity. (Am I near the mark, or am I talking out my ass?)

What bother me was that I'm on the far other side of the coin. I try to be a generally nice person. I stop and let people merge in traffic. I hold doors open for people. I volunteer. I don't beat my wife (except in self defense). I'd like to think that when I'm gone, I will have made a positive impact (however minor) on some people. But I'm just not religious. So while Mr. Joe Nasty above spends forever sipping daquiris somewhere, I'm gonna be what... slaving away in Hell? Reincarnated as a stink beetle? Snuffed away into nothingness? What?

Then I had an epiphany. I was getting annoyed over the fact that I wasn't going to be going somewhere I didn't believe in anyway. So what's the point?

There have to be other people that feel the same as me. And there have to be some people that are going to church 'just to be sure'. They're hedging their bets. They're really not too sure about this whole God/afterlife thing, but they'd better get some insurance just to be on the safe side.

So does God know? Can he pick out the weasels who are just scared they _might_ go to Hell? What happens to them?

So what if all the hoo-doo about religion isn't just hoo-doo? And despite the fact that I didn't really believe in Hell I'm going there anyway. Am I stuck there forever?

And if there really is a God, why doesn't he (she?) give us some good, tangible evidence that he exists. And I don't mean some faintly Jesus-shaped mold growing on the side of the fridge in Esther William's house in Muncie, Indiana, as seen in the National Enquirer. Why doesn't he come down and hold a press conference covered by all the major networks. "I'm real folks. It's not just bullshit. So y'all better stop 'yer sinnin'."

Or is that not the way that God works? Faith just wouldn't be faith if we all knew for sure that God was real. We have to believe for it to work. And don't tell me that the Bible says it's so. How can I believe the Bible? I don't know where it came from. For all I know it was thrown together by some pranksters a few thousand years ago. My sister and her husband, both intelligent, college-educated adults, firmly believe that the moon landing was a hoax. And I'm supposed to put my faith in the Bible.

Whatever happened to good old fashioned Greek and Roman dieties? When they got pissed off they'd come right on down to mortal-world and bitch slap you. Now that's some religion I can take to heart!

So I end my thoughts by remaining thoroughly confused. With the plethora of religions around the world today, how can they all be right? Does each believe that their particular religion is the only _true_ religion, and everyone else is just plain stupid? I revert to my previous beliefs that they are all right. Each and every person's personal faith is the true religion.

So I'm going to just keep on being a good person, and try to live a good life, and not worry too much about what everyone else thinks about me or themselves. And if there really is a heaven and I miss out for not believing, then too bad for me. I don't feel so bad, due to the fact that virtually everyone in this world I really care about has the same views as me. So at least if we do end up somewhere, we'll be there together.

That's it. Done with my mental spewing. I apoligize for any spelling or grammar mistakes. (Too hard to proofread when you're on a roll.)

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

This shit is getting heavy. I like it.

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

NeoVid said:

Unless your religion tells you to aggressively convert people, or to give all your money to the church, or to antagonize homosexuals, or to oppress women, or that holy wars are okay....

If Person X thinks there's a god, then I suppose me and Person X can agree to disagree about that. But if Person X thinks his god is telling him to interfere with my life, then there's going to be some trouble. And I feel like that's a kind of trouble I shouldn't have to put up with.

It's my opinion that religions -- as distinct from spirituality, or theism -- have caused more harm than good in the world. That's one of the things I took away from seeing Dogma -- remember how they said, don't have "beliefs", just have good ideas. Religion was created to make your relationship with whatever god you believe in easier. If it's not doing that, or if it's making other people's lives worse in the bargain, then you need to do some thinking about it.

The truth is, I don't much care if there's a god. That's why I'm an agnostic. Not because I don't know -- nobody does. I'm an agnostic because I don't care if I never find out. If you should happen to stumble across proof of the existence or non-existence of god, then by all means, send me a postcard. But if not -- oh well.

I think I do my best to develop a good code of personal ethics and live by it. Not because some massive authority figure will kick my ass if I don't, but because I think it's in the best interests of both myself and the rest of the universe. If god wants more out of me than that, he's going to have to say so, and in clear terms too. And if he's going to send me to hell just because I didn't follow one particular religion out of the many available to me, well, I don't think I want to spend eternity with a guy like that anyway.

-- http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html

I have this mental picture of people getting to the pearly gates and being told they were assholes their whole lives and are going to hell, and saying, "But I read the Bible." My kind of god doesn't care whether you read the Bible, or the New York Times, or just rented porn videos. But he does care whether you rewound those porn videos before you returned them.

---
The what mentioned above is total fiction. Please don't take it seriously!

The Bible's Cutting Room Floor by ObiJo 4-17-01

Here's a brief overview of genetics... Let me explain quantum gravity... The world's round.

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

Here's a story I heard once which you may like.... or you may think is bullshit, but whatever...

A bloke who was good all his life died and found himself outside the Pearly Gates. Smiling broadly, he strode proudly up to the gates and was preparing to push them open when he heard someone beside him clear his throat. He looked over to see Saint Peter sitting at a large ornate desk with a huge book open in front of him.

"Where do you think you're going?" Peter asked.

"To my eternal reward," the bloke answered. "Where else?"

"Not so fast, mate," Peter replied. "We recently switched over to a points system. If you scored a thousand points in your life, you get in."

The bloke was confident, and started counting his good deeds out on his fingers. "I attended Mass, not only every Sunday, but at least once on a weekday every week. I never had sex beforee I was married, and once I was married I never even thought about extra-marital affairs. I raised all of my children to be good Christians, and ensured that they brought their children up the same way. For my whole working life, half of my income went to charity, and after my retirement I continued to work full-time hours in charity organisations. How's that?"

Peter scratched a few marks in his book. "Very good," he said, finally. "That's one point."

The bloke fell to his knees, aghast. He began to cry, and said, "Then I cannot get in. My own actions just aren't enough. Nobody could ever earn a place in Heaven without the help of Jesus."

"Aaaah," sighed Peter happily. "Well done, you just earned your extra points. Go on in."

The moral of the story is that everyone makes mistakes, everyone acts selfishly sometimes, even though most of us try to be good people. The good intentions of people aren't enough - you need faith.

Yes, that means that a lifelong scumbag could conceivably renounce his bad life on his deathbed and be saved, but really, how likely is that? A deathbed confession born from selfishness and fear isn't really what I would call putting your faith in Jesus.

Despite all the rules, rituals, and smoke and mirrors, the only thing salvation requires is for somebody to say, sincerely, "Jesus, if you're there... I can't do this. I try to do the right thing, but I mess it up sometimes. I can't earn salvation on my own, and I need your help. If there really is a Heaven, please overlook my mistakes and let me in."

That's it. Seriously!

---
This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

I just finished reading Orson Scott Card's [u]Speaker for the Dead[/u], and this discussion made me think of a passage out of it. Forgive any odd spelling mistakes, I scanned it and used OCR.

quote:

---

A great rabbi stands teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife's adultery, and a mob carries her to the marketplace to stone her to death. (There is a familiar version of this story, but a friend of mine, a Speaker for the Dead, has told me of two other rabbis that faced the same situation. Those are the ones I'm going to tell you.)
The rabbi walks forward and stands beside the woman. Out of respect for him the mob forbears, and waits with the stones heavy in their hands, "Is there anyone here," he says to them, "who has not desired another man's wife, another woman's husband?"
They murmur and say, "We all know the desire. But, Rabbi, none of us has acted on it"
The rabbi says, "Then kneel down and give thanks that God made you strong." He takes the woman by the
hand and leads her out of the market. Just before he lets her go, he whispers to her, 'Tell the lord magistrate who saved his mistress. Then he'll know I am his loyal servant."
So the woman lives, because the community is too corrupt to protect itself from disorder.
Another rabbi, another city. He goes to her and stops the mob, as in the other story, and says, "Which of you is without sin? Let him cast the first stone." The people are abashed, and they forget their unity of purpose in the memory of their own individual sins. Someday, they think, I may be like this woman, and I'll hope for forgiveness and another chance. I should treat her the way I wish to be treated. As they open their hands and let the stones fall to the ground, the rabbi picks up one of the fallen stones, lofts it high over the woman's head, and throws it straight down with all his might. It crushes her skull and dashes her brains onto the cobblestones.
"Nor am I without sin." he says to the people. "But if we allow only perfect people to enforce the law, the law will soon be dead, and our city with it."
So the woman died because her community was too rigid to endure her deviance. The famous version of this story is noteworthy because it is so startlingly rare in our experience. Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis, and when they veer too far, they die. Only one rabbi dared to expect of us such a perfect balance that we could preserve the law and still forgive the deviation. So, of course, we killed him.

---

quote:

---

The scientific community will agree to any wild notion, (little green men, spaceships, an inexplicable explosion which vomited forth the universe....)which discredit the idea of God, even as a consummate engineer or force thereof.

---

I'd have to agree. Scientists are basically in pursuit of two things: truth and advancement of the species. They generally don't have an agenda other than the pursuit of truth and, ok, getting the best research grant that they can so they can afford the new lexus. Of course there are exceptions, and it's ALWAYS crazy to speak in absolutes. All scientists aren't anti-religion any more than all christian fundamentalists are anti-reason. Though, I know how tempting the anti-reason platorm is. God, how I hate rhetoric.

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

The fundies who oppose the teaching of evolution in schools are anti-reason. I was not talking about all christian fundamentalists. Most of them are pretty much harmless, in my opinion.

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

I am aware of scientific approach, discipline, methodologies, and reason. I applaud them all. They are the reason that we have come to understand the notion of engineering as an objective approach and discipline. However, the representations of scientific work are often not given to the public at large in a fashion that the layman can readily comprehend as factual research with tangible meaning. Ergo, Hollywood, television, etc... portrays the mish-mosh of science and research with a dollop of Disney as the state of the art in the scientific camp, and that is not only by and large what the average Joe sees, but if asked to subscribe to the fictionalised and romanticised notions of science -vis-a-vis film, literature, and whimsey- or the romantic notions of a God or a universally central omniscient being, most scientists, the Muslims and Christians, atheists etc... will gladly subscribe to the former. Science fiction has aided and abetted science fact handily. Our dreams are becoming more attainable through research as science marches on. That, however, does not discredit the fact that a basically identical belief system with slightly different wording has been in effect on this planet since the beginning of recorded human history. Most buncombe disappears much more quickly. There is something to be said for both camps, but neither will readily admit to that. That was the basis of my admittedly broad statement.

Thank you,

bunner

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

The fundies who oppose the teaching of evolution in schools are anti-reason. What's more anti-reason: not wanting the theory of evolution taught, or outlawing non-compelled school prayer? I think they're both fucked up. But, if the big bang is taught then creationism should be too. Not a religion-specific creationism, but just the general thought. Since science has absolutely no idea what went on in those first milliseconds, schools should introduce all possibilities. And few could argue that a non religion-specific creationism breeches church and state.

I don't think those who are christian fundamentalists are anti-reason though. In fact, they are pro-reason. They are the only christians who truly listen to what the bible says and go with it. Of course the fact that I think they're frickin bonkers makes no difference. Better than the christians who try to fit the facts to their liking. I say: There's the bible, read it. If you agree with it, become a "fundamentalist," if you don't, then become a buddhist, muslim, atheist, whatever. But for the love of GOD, stay out of Idaho. There's bad things in Idaho.

That, however, does not discredit the fact that a basically identical belief system with slightly different wording has been in effect on this planet since the beginning of recorded human history. How do you figure? When I was taking a mythology class a couple of years back, we studied many religious cultures. They were as different as different can be. With one similiarity: just about all religions in the history of man have taught an afterlife. Which could be an indication of why man created religion. So he didn't have to face his own mortality.

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

No, he came back. Remember?

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

I don't think anybody is trying to outlaw non-compelled school prayer in general. Any student is free to pray on their own in school. What the ACLU and individual students have taken issue with is organized prayer during classes. This introduces an element of coercion in their view. I am not well-versed in the arguments concerning this issue, but I do think that there is plenty of time and opportunity for prayer outside the classroom.

As soon as someone comes up with a non religion-specific creationist theory, that might be a swell idea. Of course, the christian fundamentalist activists will object to students being taught a non-christian creation theory.

And is this creation theory going to be taught in a science class? What scientific principles will this creation theory address? The Big Bang theory comes from drawing out the vectors (direction and velocity) of galaxies and finding that all galaxies came from the point of origin. The Big Bang theory is the culmination of several aspects of physics. Creation theories are the result of legends or perhaps divine revelation. Unfortunately, divine revelation gives us nothing to talk about in a science class.

How much class time would you like to be spent discussing the theory that invisible pink unicorns invented the universe? All possibilities is a whole lot of possibilities. Who is going to decide which ones are included and which ones aren't?

It's difficult to find fundamentalists who agree on everything in the bible. Everybody has their own interpretation. Even fundamentalists pick and choose their interpretation of the bible as they see fit. There is no such thing as just "listening to the bible and going with it."

Also, I find your reasoning as regards "pro-reason" troubling here. Are you saying that a person who follows a book to the letter (at least to their perception of what "to the letter" means) is "pro-reason"? In my opinion, reason involves active thought and reasoning processes, not blind obedience. Are you assuming that every fundamentalist carefully weighs the logic of the bible and tests its rationality against competing theories? If not, please give me your definition of "reason." Fundamentalists with whom I have discussed the bible say that "God's word" is the only thing that matters and that reason is irrelevant. Doesn't sound pro-reason to me.

I come to this place to get away from divisive stuff. Why are you all doing this to me? Bastards.

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

That should have read "...came from a single point of origin."

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

The scientists with whom I have discussed these matters despise the fictionalized notions of science, because it dumbs down science and gives people false ideas about what science is about. Still, the fact that a scientist might prefer watching Star Trek to watching a Jerry Falwell sermon says little about their spiritual nature. What does sci-fi have to do with God?

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

Oh, and Gabe is a holejacker.

---
"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

And what does god have to do with sci-fi? Welcome to the fuck off, huge, bleeding dichotomy. Please have your ID, passport, and ideology ready.

bunner

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

There is an effort to outlaw non-compelled school prayer, and I remember it being by the ACLU, if memory serves me right. I thought they were doing it country-wide and everyone would just understand the ref, but, if not, there has been a movement in Arizona, the state in which I live. As for organized, compelled prayer. Screw that. That should be outlawed. As for non-compelled, free speech. I think you'd agree. My point was that there are anti-reason people on both sides of the religious spectrum, but since you hadn't heard of any of the non-compelled lawsuits, I guess I missed the mark.
A possibility: Scientific theory suggests that the universe was formed from a big bang. However, current physics principles fall apart during the first few milliseconds of the big bang. There is also a deism theory which suggests that a god or gods formed the universe.

Weak, but you get my drift. I find myself in a difficult situation, arguing for the inclusion of creationism, when I am myself an atheist, but I think it's fair in the sense that NO ONE knows what caused the big bang. You've probably heard the theories, like connected universes, an endless cycle between Big Bangs and Big Crunches, etc. If such causes for the big bang are proffered (purely conjecture at this point), so too should deism be.

What I mean is this: Most christians I've talked to believe that God is infallible and the Bible is God's word. But then they mold what the Bible says into what they want it to say. Is it strong reasoning to ignore or mold sections of a book you consider as coming from an infallible God? If someone believes in an infallible God, and the Bible being that infallible God's word, then the only reasoned response would be to believe in it fundamentally. If someone doesn't believe in the Bible, they shouldn't believe in the christian god. They're a package deal in my opinion, since it's hard to believe in the christian god, but not the bible, when it was the bible that taught you that god.
Hell, we could change the subject to vector space, for all I care. But leave the tensors at home. They scare me. (I was gonna do a cross product joke here, but wisely decided against it.)

---
I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

There are very bloody few things which really amount to fuck all on this mortal coil.

Nobody's shooting film. Believe what you believe because you believe it.

Don't subscribe to ideologies that you do not understand to appease people that you rely upon for love, approval, or acceptance. It will bite you in the ass.

Do not divorce yourself from the things that you do believe in for the same, or any other reason.

Learn.

Read.

Believe in your heart and it's natural inclinations AFTER you have refined it's appetites and learned to dismiss it's treachery.

Teach.

Care.

Play fair.

Hold hands.

Wear glasses if you need them.

Love,

bunner

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

What about the sunscreen?

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.