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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

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Now THAT says it all. Mad props to Spankling.


what did I do?

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

10-26-01 9:37am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

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They fulfill no useful purpose for the vast majority who are affected. They fulfill no useful purpose in realizing our ostensible goals and principles. But the policy must achieve something for someone, don't you think? I can make some guesses off the top of my (pointy) head.

quote:

However, I think it's naive to believe that pulling negative western influence out of the middle east would deter Muslim fundamentalists from acts of terrorism. They clearly suffer from cultural envy, because Islamic nations are unable or unwilling to pull themselves out of the middle ages and establish at least a semblance of democracy and human rights. American bullying of the middle east is a convenient excuse for groups like Al-Qaeda, and this is why they have to be destroyed.
I think it's a little more than a convenient excuse. What you say is partially true-- about like saying 9/11 is a convenient excuse for our bullying the Middle East.

But you touched on the larger issue of fundamentalist intransigence in the region. At bottom, I don't believe in it. I think history shows that religious forces in society are quickly overwhelmed by secular ones given economic development with the rise of a mercantile or middle class. This is happening already in some places in the Middle East, and has happened before in others but has been rolled back mainly as a consequence of outside interference, e.g., Soviet invasion, to name a glaring example.

The fundamentalists get their best foothold in countries with lousy infrastructures incapable of supporting public schools. The zealots move in offering free books and literacy and so on-- all based on a strict interpretation of holy texts, with a heavy emphasis on received truth. That's how it works in Pakistan.

The antidote there is the same as here. The problem is that economic development for the masses requires a few measures that conflict with the priorities of those who make policy. One prerequisite is national control over national resources. We often hear about "US interests in the Persian Gulf." Now imagine having to live with "Chinese interests in the Gulf of Mexico" or "Russian interests in the English Channel," and you begin to get an idea of what democratic movements in the Middle East are up against. Here in the US, few seem to question our inalienable right to pursue our "interests" (i.e., resources) in other people's countries.

In view of just the facts (like these) that are out in plain sight, you can begin to explain the supposedly puzzling and ironic fact that democracy and development have failed to take off in Washington's sphere of influence, despite the best of efforts and intentions. So I don't think it's a question of whether or not national self-determination (or as you put it, "pulling negative western influence out of the middle east") will deter fundamentalist terrorists; to me, it seems a question of whether or not Washington should pursue an agenda that creates fundamentalist terrorists.

Since I gave an example of outside interference by an official enemy (never a problem in polite discourse), it's only fair that I mention one from our side: Operation Ajax, Iran, 1953, conducted jointly by the CIA and MI6, which overthrew the democracy of Mohammed Mossadeq, who had the backing of a burgeoning middle class. The operation restored the Shah to rulership. The ayatollahs got their influence by supporting the coup but later turned against the Shah because of his modernization programs. This led to a crackdown on the ayatollahs, including the exile of one Khomeni, who was able to parlay his 14-year exile into a sort of holy status for himself, which led to the popular overthrow of the Shah, the taking of the US embassy, severance of ties with ran, and imposition of sanctions (still in place today), which emboldened Saddam Hussein to invade Iran, with our crucial diplomatic and materiel support. Hussein emerged from the war with one of the world's largest armies, allied with the world's sole superpower, and we all know where that led. So what was wrong with Mossadeq back in 1953? Nationalization of Iranian oil interests.

Oh, yes: Tobor will cornhole you.

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What others say about boorite!

10-26-01 10:06am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

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Simply the maddest of props to Obi and evil_d.

I think Obi is right: Citizens can and do influence Washington, and in any case, it's our responsibility to try. Just think: Back in the 1960s, Kennedy was able to send the B-52s over to the other side of the world and carpet-bomb some little country without hearing a peep about it. But that kind of stuff was driven almost entirely underground through most of the 80s, until Panama and then Iraq, when Bush the Elder declared we'd "whipped Vietnam syndrome" (meaning the bombers were once again free to roll). I think the powers would like us to feel helpless and futile, but just look at what citizen opposition has achieved in the past.

Washington is very afraid of bad PR.

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What others say about boorite!

10-26-01 10:17am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:


Now THAT says it all. Mad props to Spankling.


what did I do?

Oh, I meant israphael. Well, props and snaps and all that stuff to you as well.

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What others say about boorite!

10-26-01 10:19am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

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10-26-01 10:59am (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

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quote:
Say you see someone speeding violently through a pedestrian zone or beating the fuck out of an old lady. No matter what the perpetrator's ostensible motives (getting to an important meeting, fighting terrorism, whatever), the idea of offering "viable alternatives" needn't enter into it.

"Stop beating that lady!"

"You got a better idea?"


I'm sorry, but that also was not what I meant by "kidnapping the moral high ground." I meant that knee-jerk liberalism is often as counter-productive as knee-jerk aggression. Also, that is a pretty lame analogy in view.

War is a historic fact that all prosperous nations have been trying to pull away from for years. You get fat and happy, things are good, you want peace. On the obverse of that oft-flipped coin: You get fat and happy, you become a target for nations that do not have what you have and they bloody well want it. Thus are the mechanics of secular war.

This is not a secular war. These people live in a cultural environment that they carry about with them like a tattered, wounded thing; regardless of their country of residence. It is one born of backwards, oppressive, religious dogma that clearly states that all non-radical Muslims are infidels and enemies of Allah and the Muslim Nation. That they should be eradicated en masse in any land, at any time, with extreme prejudice. Should it's faithful followers pish it in the process of carrying out this Fatwah of Jihad against the infidel, more is his glory for he shall be arsed and elbowed into Heaven straight into the bosom of Allah and, blah, blah, blah, yakkety shmacketty.

These are, in the context of any rational culture; madmen. And they are men. The women in this culture are relegated to the level of chattel, baby machines, and/or whores. For a woman to even entertain the notion that she has a say in her fate in this culture is to seal it with disastrous ends.

So: Our government hates bad publicity, raising the level of commerce and cultural awareness in backwards society is the answer, but no matter what; we should do no harm.

Harm, sir, was done to us in the form of an act of war that invoked wholesale murder and mayhem on an uncounted number of our citizens. They have decimated several blocks of non-military real estate, used US commercial aircraft to do it, and are in the process of introducing biological warfare upon our military, governmental and public organisations via the postal service.

What in God's name makes you think that if America had had a chance to deal sanely with the culture that perpetrated these acts that they would not have, I do not know; but to follow your analogy: If the guy beating the woman, or the man, or the child does NOT stop, it's probably best to break his fucking legs with something and THEN try and reason with him after he can no longer keep maiming his victim. Nobody likes war, but the reasons that this one has been enacted are more than just cause in the eyes of not only history, but of a common need for ANY land to defend it's borders. Let alone it's interests. I hope it is short and effective and leads to method of heading off terrorist acts before they happen in the future. London has been fighting this sort of thing on a smaller scale with the IRA for years. Lets hope that the freedoms that we are abdicating now will lead to a more free society in our country later. I have no sympathy for calculating madmen and religious zealots who commit wholesale murder. Let us hope that beneath the heel of the Taliban regime are a people that love their children, too.

I have no love of war. If your approach is a more viable one, it is my fondest wish that it becomes our national defense policy immediately.

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 12:47pm (new)
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kramer_vs_kramer
Stripcreator Newbie

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Would that be the same IRA who were largely funded by the US?

10-26-01 1:14pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

No, that would be the IRA that is largely funded by ex-pat Irish U.S. citizens. I don't recall congress cutting budget checks addressed to Shankhill Rd.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 1:51pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

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No, that would be the IRA that is largely funded by ex-pat Irish U.S. citizens. I don't recall congress cutting budget checks addressed to Shankhill Rd.


Yeah, saying the US is a benefactor of the IRA is like saying the UK funds the BNP.

10-26-01 1:56pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

We live in a society where immigrants sending money back home is an old tradition. you can bet your aunt Nelly's arse that that practice will be watched much more closely now. For the Afghanis, the Irish, anybody. The troubles have had an ugly history of their own, and a lot of it has been funded by private US citizens who are sympathetic to the cause of the IRA, but not by their government. A lot of people come here to use our economy to fund their own agendas. Frankly, we're quite sick of it.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 2:02pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

quote:
This is not a secular war. These people live in a cultural environment that they carry about with them like a tattered, wounded thing; regardless of their country of residence. It is one born of backwards, oppressive, religious dogma that clearly states that all non-radical Muslims are infidels and enemies of Allah and the Muslim Nation. That they should be eradicated en masse in any land, at any time, with extreme prejudice. Should it's faithful followers pish it in the process of carrying out this Fatwah of Jihad against the infidel, more is his glory for he shall be arsed and elbowed into Heaven straight into the bosom of Allah and, blah, blah, blah, yakkety shmacketty.

These are, in the context of any rational culture; madmen. And they are men. The women in this culture are relegated to the level of chattel, baby machines, and/or whores. For a woman to even entertain the notion that she has a say in her fate in this culture is to seal it with disastrous ends.


Undoubtedly. However they've been wronged by the First World in the past, they remain upholders of an ignorant, irrational culture which commits acts of war not for its own gain, as the west does, but just for violence's own sake. There is no way to reason with a government made up of people of this culture, which is why the Taliban has to be replaced by moderates (although I hardly think the Northern Alliance can be called that).

quote:
Harm, sir, was done to us in the form of an act of war that invoked wholesale murder and mayhem on an uncounted number of our citizens. They have decimated several blocks of non-military real estate, used US commercial aircraft to do it, and are in the process of introducing biological warfare upon our military, governmental and public organisations via the postal service.

What in God's name makes you think that if America had had a chance to deal sanely with the culture that perpetrated these acts that they would not have, I do not know; but to follow your analogy: If the guy beating the woman, or the man, or the child does NOT stop, it's probably best to break his fucking legs with something and THEN try and reason with him after he can no longer keep maiming his victim. Nobody likes war, but the reasons that this one has been enacted are more than just cause in the eyes of not only history, but of a common need for ANY land to defend it's borders. Let alone it's interests. I hope it is short and effective and leads to method of heading off terrorist acts before they happen in the future. London has been fighting this sort of thing on a smaller scale with the IRA for years. Lets hope that the freedoms that we are abdicating now will lead to a more free society in our country later. I have no sympathy for calculating madmen and religious zealots who commit wholesale murder. Let us hope that beneath the heel of the Taliban regime are a people that love their children, too.


Very few in the west would argue that destroying the terrorists responsible for the disaster, and preventing others from repeating it, is unjustified. The problem is that dropping bombs from the sky, which may or may not hit innocent people who just happen to live in the same country as the terrorists, is immoral and counter-productive. The US and Britain are following this course of action in order to protect our servicepeople, who would certainly suffer far greater casualties on the ground: but as I understand it, those servicepeople are paid to risk their lives to protect the innocent, not to endanger them. Bush is keen on branding the terrorists "cowards", which, since they believe all this rubbish about going to Allah-praiser heaven with their harems, is accurate: but equally, how is it brave to slaughter civilians who are unfortunate enough to live in an undeveloped country just to minimise dissent at home?

10-26-01 2:22pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

Those service people, that is: the military of the respective nations involved, are paid to protect the citizens, safety, and borders of their respective countries. Not non-military personnel of other countries. While it is our policy to avoid civilian casualties in any war, (this is a relatively new idea, actually), the US and Britain were of the first nations to not only advocate it as the only conscionable way to conduct warfare, but to actually try and hold their own soldiers accountable. There are always innocents harmed in war. That is why sentient, civil people despise it so. War is abhorrent. It is also sometimes the only course of action to pursue.

I don't think that Bush branded the terrorists cowards because they believe in Allah and harems and all that. I think it was the fact that they stole, connived, plotted, and snuck about like rats in a cellar and then unceremoniously destroyed a square mile of New York City using planes full of screaming, frightened, innocent passengers; killed thousands of civilians in one fell swoop; and did this in the name of their God, instead of just jumping up eyeball to eyeball and saying "We're at war, motherfuckers. Put 'em up!", and attacking military targets instead.

We could avoid hitting a lot more non-military targets in Afghanistan as we respond to their act of war if they would stop hiding behind their women's tattered skirts and holing up in caves like snakes, and had the balls to come out and actually go to war. For a people in such a hurry to commit suicide, they seem to have a very solid, if cowardly, affinity for self preservation.

America is not, however -despite what the rest of the world may believe to the contrary- the local police precinct to the world. We've got our own to protect and we do it with our own taxes and our own citizens as soldiers. We should not have to apologise for the fact that our economy has the means to support the best military in the world. We encourage people everywhere to emulate our economic model. I do not personally encourage this to the point of them shipping jobs to other countries, as we have so foolishly and greedily done, but at least to where those countries can fight their own battles, feed their own people, and mind their own store.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 2:57pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:
quote:
Say you see someone speeding violently through a pedestrian zone or beating the fuck out of an old lady. No matter what the perpetrator's ostensible motives (getting to an important meeting, fighting terrorism, whatever), the idea of offering "viable alternatives" needn't enter into it.

"Stop beating that lady!"

"You got a better idea?"


I'm sorry, but that also was not what I meant by "kidnapping the moral high ground." I meant that knee-jerk liberalism is often as counter-productive as knee-jerk aggression. Also, that is a pretty lame analogy in view.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were repeating the criticism that the Left often condemns US policy without offering an alternative. In my view, that is a pretty lame criticism when we are talking about criminal acts. How could it be my burden to offer an "alternative" to criminal behavior?
quote:

War is a historic fact that all prosperous nations have been trying to pull away from for years.

The US has been trying to pull away from it? I hadn't noticed. Do tell.
quote:

You get fat and happy, things are good, you want peace. On the obverse of that oft-flipped coin: You get fat and happy, you become a target for nations that do not have what you have and they bloody well want it.

Or you get fat and greedy, and you want what the other guy has, so you stomp him in the nuts and take it. Which of these best describes Uncle Sam?
quote:

These are, in the context of any rational culture; madmen. And they are men. The women in this culture are relegated to the level of chattel, baby machines, and/or whores.

Depends on what culture you mean. It wasn't always like that even in Afghanistan. Sure the Koran may call for a lot of that stuff. But the Bible calls for a lot of stuff you don't see "Christians" doing. I don't think Islam is much different-- not so different as to be immune to the secularizing forces that have toned down Christendom from its Inquisition-era excesses.
quote:

So: Our government hates bad publicity, raising the level of commerce and cultural awareness in backwards society is the answer. . .

Not quite what I said. I suggested that if countries are allowed to develop their own way using their own natural resources, we might expect to see the rise of a middle class and the waning of fundamentalism's influence on public life.
quote:

but no matter what; we should do no harm.

Hang on a sec. I did not argue for pacifism. By "do no harm" I mean that we should not act in such a way as to make the situation worse. It's better to do nothing at all, and even better to act in a way that improves the situation. Beating the old lady or speeding (or illegal bombing) were examples of harm we shouldn't do-- asking someone to stop does not require me to offer an alternative.

Believe me, I'm not a pacifist.

quote:

Harm, sir, was done to us in the form of an act of war that invoked wholesale murder and mayhem on an uncounted number of our citizens.

Dash it all, sir! Humbug! But seriously, I know that. I'd just like to know how that justifies this bombing, or how the bombing even helps.
quote:

What in God's name makes you think that if America had had a chance to deal sanely with the culture that perpetrated these acts that they would not have, I do not know;

See for example the NYT article linked above.
quote:

but to follow your analogy: If the guy beating the woman, or the man, or the child does NOT stop, it's probably best to break his fucking legs with something and THEN try and reason with him after he can no longer keep maiming his victim.

So if Washington is beating on civilians, then someone should break Washington's legs, I presume?

And then there's this: We do happen to be breaking a lot of legs, none of them Bin Laden's.

quote:

If your approach is a more viable one, it is my fondest wish that it becomes our national defense policy immediately.
Again with the more viable. Tell ya what: I'll go kill a bunch of people unless you can give me a more viable alternative. Makes a lot of sense, huh?

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What others say about boorite!

10-26-01 3:03pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

No, Bush called them cowards because it's just a general, pretty meaningless way of undermining them. If they had hijacked a plane and flown it into a building believing that only oblivion awaited them, I'd say they were pretty brave.

10-26-01 3:18pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:

While it is our policy to avoid civilian casualties in any war, (this is a relatively new idea, actually), the US and Britain were of the first nations to not only advocate it as the only conscionable way to conduct warfare, but to actually try and hold their own soldiers accountable.

It's hard to know where to begin here except to say I have not known the US to hesitate to inflict widespread suffering in pursuit of its political goals. It certainly is true that they could harm more civilians if they wanted to, but that's not quite what we mean by avoiding civilian casualties. If you listen at all to the White House, you will find that in Iraq, Kosovo, and now in Afghanistan, they have bombed in hopes of causing such a civilian panic that the populace overthrows the government. That is right on the table in most cases. What do we call terrorizing the populace in order to achieve political aims? There's a word for it. It's right on the tip of my tongue.
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There are always innocents harmed in war. That is why sentient, civil people despise it so. War is abhorrent. It is also sometimes the only course of action to pursue.

And I have not known Washington to exhaust diplomatic and legal channels before resorting to it. And I have noticed that the effect is often (as in this case) to redress a crime with a crime, and to make matters worse.

"Are crimes to be punished but by more crimes, and greater criminals?"

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America is not, however -despite what the rest of the world may believe to the contrary- the local police precinct to the world.

But that's the position Washington has put us in. Believe me, the rest of the world would just as soon we fuck off.
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We've got our own to protect and we do it with our own taxes and our own citizens as soldiers. We should not have to apologise for the fact that our economy has the means to support the best military in the world.

Lordy.

Contemplate the phrase "US interests in the Persian Gulf" for a minute.

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10-26-01 3:25pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were repeating the criticism that the Left often condemns US policy without offering an alternative. In my view, that is a pretty lame criticism when we are talking about criminal acts. How could it be my burden to offer an "alternative" to criminal behavior?

No, I was stating a criticism that the left usually just takes a devil's advocate position in any conflict and smirks mightily at anything that doesn't meet it's agenda, and that that conflict is something that they have already thoroughly washed their lily-white hands of before a word is spoken because they are "above such things." I.E: Highjacking the moral high ground.
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War is a historic fact that all prosperous nations have been trying to pull away from for years.

We tried to avoid becoming involved in WW I. We tried mightily as a motherfucker to avoid getting involved in WW II and were taken to task for it. Thereafter we became awash in the headiness of victory and tripped over our military weenies for quite a bit. Although a lot of it was simply unfinished business with countries that were weaker than ours, and to whom we had pledged our forces. When the phone stops ringing, we'll stay home. As for the Iran-Contra crap.... I can't begin to excuse Reagan, nor would I try.
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quote:

You get fat and happy, things are good, you want peace. On the obverse of that oft-flipped coin: You get fat and happy, you become a target for nations that do not have what you have and they bloody well want it.

Or you get fat and greedy, and you want what the other guy has, so you stomp him in the nuts and take it. Which of these best describes Uncle Sam?

The former if you read past 1970.
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quote:

These are, in the context of any rational culture; madmen. And they are men. The women in this culture are relegated to the level of chattel, baby machines, and/or whores.

Depends on what culture you mean. It wasn't always like that even in Afghanistan. Sure the Koran may call for a lot of that stuff. But the Bible calls for a lot of stuff you don't see "Christians" doing. I don't think Islam is much different-- not so different as to be immune to the secularizing forces that have toned down Christendom from its Inquisition-era excesses.

I think they're immune system is holding up quite well considering the socio-cultural climates and technologies available during the respective eras of history in which these events and the Inquisition occurred, don't you? No, of course you don't.
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quote:

So: Our government hates bad publicity, raising the level of commerce and cultural awareness in backwards society is the answer. . .

Not quite what I said. I suggested that if countries are allowed to develop their own way using their own natural resources, we might expect to see the rise of a middle class and the waning of fundamentalism's influence on public life.

Yeah, we've really been holding the Islamic Fundamentalists back from creating a stable economy and pursuing social enlightenment by buying all of that oil off of them.
quote:

but no matter what; we should do no harm.

Hang on a sec. I did not argue for pacifism. By "do no harm" I mean that we should not act in such a way as to make the situation worse. It's better to do nothing at all, and even better to act in a way that improves the situation. Beating the old lady or speeding (or illegal bombing) were examples of harm we shouldn't do-- asking someone to stop does not require me to offer an alternative.

Believe me, I'm not a pacifist.

quote:
quote:
Harm, sir, was done to us in the form of an act of war that invoked wholesale murder and mayhem on an uncounted number of our citizens.

Dash it all, sir! Humbug! But seriously, I know that. I'd just like to know how that justifies this bombing, or how the bombing even helps.


You're also not a very good prig baiter.
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quote:

What in God's name makes you think that if America had had a chance to deal sanely with the culture that perpetrated these acts that they would not have, I do not know;

See for example the NYT article linked above.
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Will do.
quote:
quote:
but to follow your analogy: If the guy beating the woman, or the man, or the child does NOT stop, it's probably best to break his fucking legs with something and THEN try and reason with him after he can no longer keep maiming his victim.

So if Washington is beating on civilians, then someone should break Washington's legs, I presume?

And then there's this: We do happen to be breaking a lot of legs, none of them Bin Laden's.


Note yet, no.

quote:
quote:

If your approach is a more viable one, it is my fondest wish that it becomes our national defense policy immediately.
Again with the more viable. Tell ya what: I'll go kill a bunch of people unless you can give me a more viable alternative. Makes a lot of sense, huh?

The Taliban just did that.

war (wôr)
n.

A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 3:41pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

quote:

No, Bush called them cowards because it's just a general, pretty meaningless way of undermining them. If they had hijacked a plane and flown it into a building believing that only oblivion awaited them, I'd say they were pretty brave.


Yes, let's all shed a tear for the glorious highjackers who rammed airplanes into occupied buildings. Depsite the fact that they did it because they believed they would go to heaven, and that's wrong, we shouldnt undermine them. It might hurt their feelings

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 3:44pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

And as far as the rest of the world wishing that we would fuck off: I am no foe of isolationism, sunshine. I would just as soon tell all of the countries that nag us for aid and army to fuck off, too. Maybe we should start doing that again. It did us no end of good in the 19th century, I can tell you.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 3:46pm (new)
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wirthling
supercalifragilisticexpialadosucks

Member Rated:

What boorite said.

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"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

10-26-01 3:59pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

Many people who are disgusted with the policies of their homelands emigrate. Usually to here. If you guys have a spot picked out that's better, I exhort you: Go there. And save a space for me. Just make sure it's someplace that doesn't stick it's foot up your arse for having a dissenting opinion, first, though. That would be terrible, wouldn't it?

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 4:05pm (new)
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ObiJo
Eamus Catuli

Member Rated:

You haven't misinterpreted me. The only thing I'd add is that is that I'd call it grief AND anger. I've got to say on the whole I've been a lot more angry than I have been grief-stricken since the terrorist attacks. I realize that grief and anger aren't two of the best jumping off points to make decisions, but I also realize this is the condition of the human animal.

I was going for the realistic adjective, but not the heartless one. I apologize if I came off so. I can only say that I do have compassion for innocent people, American, Afghan or Martian. I just see more innocent people getting hurt by allowing Bin Laden to live. And I still see the current military actions as the most viable. (I used that word just to see boorite's temple throb. :)

That said, I think I'll shut up as well. I find I learn more just by being in spectator mode and listening to you intelligent bastards.

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I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

10-26-01 5:50pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

quote:

No, Bush called them cowards because it's just a general, pretty meaningless way of undermining them. If they had hijacked a plane and flown it into a building believing that only oblivion awaited them, I'd say they were pretty brave.


You're supposed to undermine your enemy. That's why they call us Godless Infidels. See how that works?

So....

Let me get this straight: The firefighters who rushed into the scene of mayhem, collapsing rubble and a smoke filled inferno, many of whom died trying to save the lives of people who were still clinging to life after being attacked with a fucking AIRPLANE, for Chrissake, that's no big deal.

Eh.... they get a check. Fuck 'em. But the people who committed this unspeakable act of murder and war, hey, that takes some fucking ginguines, man. Mustn't offend....

I don't know just how much PC twaddle is being spoon fed to students at university these days since I managed to emerge from academia when it still taught subjects and not social conditioning, but any philosophy that adheres blindly to the notion that when theory and historic fact meet, that fact must be dismissed; is an insult to the very core of education.

Insistence of adherence to dictum and enforced ideologies in the face of simple realities, -risking exile and derision and reprogramming to not comply with them- was already tried in the Soviet Union. They're not so Soviet or Unified anymore because people got sick of lying to themselves. I can't WAIT to see the hangover from the inevitable disenchantment with PC that looms on our horizon. I just hope it happens before saying "I disagree" puts you into a Gulag.

That statement has got to be one of the largest insults to intelligence, dignity and common sensibility that I have ever read concerning the events of this autumn.

They weren't brave. They were hateful, psychotic, murderers who didn't have the fucking stones to declare war by attacking a military installation, or making a declaration, but rather by way of DELIBERATELY perpetrating wholesale murder on a bunch of office workers and airplane passengers.

To put it kindly, I disagree. To put it bluntly:

Shame on you.

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 6:55pm (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

You're supposed to undermine your enemy. That's why they call us Godless Infidels. See how that works?

So....

Let me get this straight: The firefighters who rushed into the scene of mayhem, collapsing rubble and a smoke filled inferno, many of whom died trying to save the lives of people who were still clinging to life after being attacked with a fucking AIRPLANE, for Chrissake, that's no big deal.


Which part of my post are you referring to here? I didn't say this. Of course the firefighters and others involved in the rescue were incredibly brave! Oh well. Have your rant.

This is a totally knee-jerk response to a very harmless and uncontroversial statement: that Bush said the terrorists were cowards simply because they were his enemy, not because they committed a cowardly act. When did I undermine the bravery of the rescue workers? When did I say it was wrong to, er, "offend" the terrorists? Seems you've put me into a box marked "appeaser" because I mildly disagreed with you.

I can only assume this isn't addressed to me, since it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said, and I agree with it. Carry on.

Uh, you're the one who's flying off the handle because I disagreed with one very minor point you made. I opined that Bush was simply going through the motions of saying bad things about the enemy, true or otherwise: to compare me to a Stalinist because of this is, to say the least, a slight overreaction.

Because I (very mildly) insulted Bush? That's the most offensive thing you've heard regarding the attacks?
Or is the part which aggrieves you, as I suspect, where I said that anyone who carried out such acts as those on 9/11 would be brave if they expected no reward for it? Well, sorry, but a person willing to suffer for their beliefs is, by definiton, brave. If they kill themselves in order to slaughter thousands of civilians, it makes them totally and utterly evil, but brave nonetheless. Brave, in this case, is not a compliment. It's a statement of fact. If I were to say that the terrorists were intelligent, would that also be considered supporting them? Brave and good aren't synonyms. Okay? Oh, wait. As I read on, I see you've chosen only to listen to part of what I said.

I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone to disagree with this. Here's what I wrote:

How you can possibly interpret from this that I consider these terrorists to be courageous is a mystery. Next time you reply to someone's point with a lecture bemoaning how PC the world is getting and how ignorant its people are, it'd probably be a good idea to read what the other person actually said.

quote:
To put it kindly, I disagree. To put it bluntly:

Shame on you.


Sorry. Next time I'll cross my fingers and hope you read my post properly.

10-26-01 8:31pm (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

I'm sorry if I extrapolated, but it certainly sounded like the same sort of mealy mouthed "Ah, well, but in THIS circumstance, they could be considered heroes, brave, just, etc..." crap that is very much the product of the PC hogwash that passes for broad thinking these days.

If I was mistaken, I apologise.

However, as far as this goes:

quote:

If they had hijacked a plane and flown it into a building believing that only oblivion awaited them, I'd say they were pretty brave.

I don't give a good Goddamn if those bastards were told that Taco Bell awaited them. If they were brave, then Pol Pot was a fucking visionary. It was a cowardly act under any circumstance.

I apologise for reading too much into the statement you did make. It seemed to be ripe with exactly what I attacked in error when I replied to it.

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-26-01 8:54pm (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


lara7
Jimmy Carter says YES!

Member Rated:

Bunner sez:

dude, I agree with the sentiment, but please, when you quote PJ O'Rourke, credit PJ O Rourke. it's the right (and the Right) thing to do.

---
When they invent BookFace, I'm -there-.

10-28-01 9:07am (new)
quote : comics : pm : info

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