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Stripcreator » General Discussion » Tobor Takes on Oppression

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flickguy
Senior Comic Technician

Member Rated:

Just a word on the "brave" issue.

Suicide -- no matter its purpose -- is cowardly. These hijackers took their own lives and therefore did not have to face the consequences of their heinous deeds.

That is not brave.

What they believe is their reward (or non-reward, or whatever) is quite frankly irrelevant. To know that your actions will have consequences, and choose not to be around to face them, is pure and utter cowardice.

(And PC be damned!)

---
This is not my empire.

10-28-01 9:21am (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

I maintain my idea of pouring liquid pig fat on the afghanis.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

10-28-01 9:39pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

quote:
Just a word on the "brave" issue.

That is not brave.

What they believe is their reward (or non-reward, or whatever) is quite frankly irrelevant. To know that your actions will have consequences, and choose not to be around to face them, is pure and utter cowardice.

(And PC be damned!)


Amen.

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-28-01 10:10pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

quote:
quote:
Just a word on the "brave" issue.

That is not brave.

What they believe is their reward (or non-reward, or whatever) is quite frankly irrelevant. To know that your actions will have consequences, and choose not to be around to face them, is pure and utter cowardice.

(And PC be damned!)


Amen.


Woo!! Computer bashing!

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

10-28-01 10:14pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

This Modern World

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

10-29-01 8:55am (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

Ted Rall says so many things so well.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

10-29-01 9:07am (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

Noted.

That quote is from P.J. O'Rourke's "Give War A Chance"

Recommended reading.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-31-01 7:46am (new)
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kramer_vs_kramer
Stripcreator Newbie

Member Rated:

This one's quite interesting.

10-31-01 7:51am (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

It certainly is.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-31-01 9:36am (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

When even the Mirror is turning against the bombing, they know they've got problems.

10-31-01 12:26pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

....unless you discount for the fact that the Mirror is utter arse.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-31-01 2:31pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

I mean, it's National Enquirer without class.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-31-01 2:33pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

Yeah, but normally rightist, jingoistic, establishment arse, which is why it's so strange that it's condemning the bombing.

10-31-01 2:50pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

The National Enq. kept getting the scoop on OJ - maybe crap-mags are becoming the last bastion of free press.

;-)

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

10-31-01 2:52pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

This war might just need the people of the Western world to draw lines elsewhere. Maybe between two things that aren't piss-beaten Hollywood cliche`s. Frankly,I'm pretty stunned, too.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

10-31-01 2:57pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

This guy's got it right:

[Click to view comic: 'Sand Nigger City']

Mr.Bojangles for president, say I.

10-31-01 3:46pm (new)
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DexX
What the Cat Dragged In

Member Rated:

Wow... very refreshing to see such carefully thought-out diplomatic solutions being proposed, isn't it?

Oh, whoever posted that Mirror article - thanks. It has given me some hope that maybe public opinion has started to shift enough that this "war" (read: massacre) will be called to a halt.

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This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

10-31-01 10:28pm (new)
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arrandildocompany
Pink Donkey Wrangler

Member Rated:

Yeah, but normally rightist, jingoistic, establishment arse, which is why it's so strange that it's condemning the bombing.


What the hell are you talking about?!? The Mirror has always been the centre-left alternative to its arch-enemy the Sun. (And of course Pilger would oppose anything the US / UK governments do...) Only when the SUN starts writing editorials against it will they have cause for concern.

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Worldwide Front for Islamic Jihad against Jews, Crusaders and Naughty Monkeys

10-31-01 10:41pm (new)
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arrandildocompany
Pink Donkey Wrangler

Member Rated:

Ach. Now, having read the whole thing, I'm annoyed I only just entered this debate. I assumed from the title that it was more nonsense about robots raping Brad or something.
Anyway, here's what I think - I think Andy probably now regrets using the term 'brave', rather than just 'not cowardly'. To me, 'brave' and 'cowardly' imply a rational state of mind, capable of making sensible and informed decisions - whereas clearly these guys were completely insane. However, I do strongly agree with one thing he said ages ago (sorry about this), that religion should be treated as completely a matter of choice, like hairstyles, and therefore must not be lumped in together with race, nationality, etc.
PS I read that book 'Give War A Chance'. Absolutely hilarious stuff.

---
Worldwide Front for Islamic Jihad against Jews, Crusaders and Naughty Monkeys

10-31-01 11:04pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

From Barbara Kingsolver (and yes, I tired to edit it down)

MY daughter came home from kindergarten and announced, "Tomorrow we all have to wear red, white and blue." Why?" I asked, trying not to sound wary. For all the people that died when the airplanes hit the buildings." I fear the sound of saber-rattling, dread that not just my taxes but even my children are being dragged to the cause of death in the wake of death. I asked quietly, "Why not wear black, then? Why the colors of the flag, what does that mean?"

"It means we're a country. Just all people together." So we sent her to school in red, white and blue, because it felt to her like something she could do to help people who are hurting. And because my wise husband put a hand on my arm and said, "You can't let hateful people steal the flag from us." He didn't mean terrorists, he meant Americans. Like the man in a city near us who went on a rampage crying "I'm an American" as he shot at foreign-born neighbors, killing a gentle Sikh man in a turban and terrifying every brown- skinned person I know. Or the talk-radio hosts, who are viciously bullying a handful of members of congress for airing sensible skepticism at a time when the White House was announcing preposterous things in apparent self-interest, such as the "revelation" that terrorists had aimed to hunt down Air Force One with a hijacked commercial plane.

Patriotism seems to be falling to whoever claims it loudest, and we're left struggling to find a efinition in a clamor of reaction. Patriotism threatens free speech with death. It is infuriated by thoughtful hesitation, constructive criticism of our leaders and pleas for peace. It despises people of foreign birth who've spent years learning our culture and contributing their talents to our economy. It has specifically blamed homosexuals, feminists and the American Civil Liberties Union. In other words, the American flag stands for intimidation, censorship, violence, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, and shoving the Constitution through a paper shredder? Who are we calling terrorists here? Outsiders can destroy airplanes and buildings, but it is only we, the people, who have the power to demolish our own ideals.

It occurs to me that my patriotic duty is to recapture my flag from the men now waving it in the name of jingoism and censorship. This isn't easy for me.

Stating these realities does not violate the principles of liberty, equality, and freedom of speech; it exercises them, and by exercise we grow stronger. I would like to stand up for my flag and wave it over a few things I believe in, including but not limited to the protection of dissenting points of view.

My town, Tucson, Ariz., has become famous for a simple gesture in which some 8,000 people wearing red, white or blue T-shirts assembled themselves in the shape of a flag on a baseball field and had their photograph taken from above. That picture has begun to turn up everywhere, but we saw it first on our newspaper's front page. Our family stood in silence for a minute looking at that photo of a human flag, trying to know what to make of it. Then my teenage daughter, who has a quick mind for numbers and a sensitive heart, did an interesting thing. She laid her hand over a quarter of the picture, leaving visible more or less 6,000 people, and said, "That many are dead."

We stared at what that looked like -- all those innocent souls, multi-colored and packed into a conjoined destiny -- and shuddered at the one simple truth behind all the noise, which is that so many beloved people have suddenly gone from us. That is my flag, and that's what it means: We're all just people together.

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

11-01-01 1:28pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

What the flag means to me: In the dead of night, when we were under attack, the flash of the bombs served only to show the flag still flying, and the Union still intact. And when dawn came, there it was still.

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What others say about boorite!

11-01-01 1:49pm (new)
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ObiJo
Eamus Catuli

Member Rated:

I find nothing funnier than someone who ostensibly claims to be pro-free speech then turn around and say that anyone who speaks out against the ACLU is promoting censorship and intimidation.

Pro-free speech doesn't mean letting those you agree with talk. It means letting ANYONE talk. Even those you disagree with. Actually, ESPECIALLY those you disagree with. Free speech isn't a happy rose colored ideal. It can be a dirty process. Let racists speak, let nazis speak, let EVERYONE speak. You have the right to speak back, or even the duty, but you don't silence people no matter what their opinions. An error Which is exactly what I believe the ACLU has done in regards to voluntary school prayer.

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I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

11-01-01 2:01pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

PJ O'Rourke is stunningly hilarious. He's also an overgrown frat boy who has parlayed a one-coat finish of political acumen into a whole career as a pundit. Half the time, I'm floored by his comic gift. The other half, I'm just annoyed at what a facile, spoiled brat he is.

Gimme Hunter S instead. Everyone should read "He Was a Crook" right now. (And lest you think he's partisan, he said Clinton's crimes, quite aside from the Lewinsky thing, may have dwarfed Nixon's.)

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What others say about boorite!

11-01-01 2:02pm (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

To me, asking whether or not the terrorists were "brave" is like asking if they were handsome or sensitive. I just can't make sense of the question in this context. It doesn't pertain.

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What others say about boorite!

11-01-01 2:04pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

I find nothing funnier than someone who ostensibly claims to be pro-free speech then turn around and say that anyone who speaks out against the ACLU is promoting censorship and intimidation.

Pro-free speech doesn't mean letting those you agree with talk. It means letting ANYONE talk. Even those you disagree with. Actually, ESPECIALLY those you disagree with. Free speech isn't a happy rose colored ideal. It can be a dirty process. Let racists speak, let nazis speak, let EVERYONE speak. You have the right to speak back, or even the duty, but you don't silence people no matter what their opinions. An error Which is exactly what I believe the ACLU has done in regards to voluntary school prayer.


Thanks Obi. I just want to say, I'm not against people being defended when they deserve it, but the ACLU attempting to take down a simple banner of "God Bless America" through legal action is just wrong. It doesn't say "May the Christian God Bless America" or "Buddah Bless America", it says "God". A generic God. No matter how much you read into the constitution, it does not ever prohibit that. Promoting a single religion may be a little heavy-handed, but at best, this was promoting faith in something at those extremely hard times. Frankly, I'm much more disappointed in my local High School, which after the tragedy, continued to arrogantly wave the US flag at full-mast.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

11-01-01 8:47pm (new)
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