Now that Bush has completely fucked up and got us into this Iraq mess, how do we end it? Of course step one is make him unemployed, but then what? How do we clean up after this arrant child? How do we extricate ourselves without leaving a vacuum that will be filled by something worse than Saddam? Of course, any real leader would have had an answer for that before he got us into this mess.

Refocusing on the war on terror should be part of it, but Bush has made doing that much tougher. Invading Iraq has created a lot more new terrorists than it has killed. And the ones that were already around are felling even more motivated and justified. Osama has the Jihad he asked for.

I'm honestly asking, here. How do we end this crap-fest that Bush created? How do we get back to at least the level of mayhem that existed before he started screwing around? Ideas?

Blah blah blah.

You're too damn funny to be wasting time with political threads like this. MAKE ME LAUGH, YOU BASTARD!

Perhaps all the soldiers should do like Stan & Laurel and just walk slowly out of Iraq whilst whistling a nonchalant tune.
Then every time a politician is on the telly and an interviewer starts asking tough questions about Iraq the politician can just walk slowly out of the studio whilst whistling a nonchalant tune.
Eventually most people will forget and wonder why the activists and journalists keep going on about this supposed " Iraqi war ".

*whistles and backs slowly out of the thread*

Yeah, I know... I'm supposed to not be here, but I can't get my cablemodem line run for another couple of days, so.. bite me.

"War. Pro war. Anti-war. Good war. Bad war. Exit strategies...."

Bullshit.

Sitting around wringing our hands over this pre-fabricated, lawless clusterfuck of a war is exactly the sort of thing that President Cheney and that whole two-faced pack of bastards wants America to do. It's the one thing that almost guarantees that the general wave of paranoia will eke Bush back into office. Perhaps this time, if we're not careful, by way of a legal election as opposed to high-level election fraud.

It's STILL the economy, stupid. Period.

And the economy is piss-poor, at the moment, unless you're already rich.

All of this whining and protesting and smirking and nudge-and-winking is just a big, fat red herring show.
I already saw this movie, and I left where I came in.

As far as an exit strategy, here's one: Leave.

Tighten up our borders, dismantle the illegal Office of Homeland Security and replace it with a well funded, legal and comprehensive anti-terrorist intelligence network, (you know... one that's allowed to admit that Iraq isn't the threat or the problem), focus on domestic issues and just let the whole bloody clump of sword waving, fundamentalist dipshits fucking kill each other. Lord knows our absence would ass and elbow these clown show countries into finding new enemies to hate.

Perhaps we could leave a card: "When you're ready to join the world market in a fashion that doesn't endanger the well being of the people whom you import, (in order to show you how), give us a call." - The American People.

One thing's for sure: The Republicans are very well aware of the fact that if you really want to hurt somebody, you just kick them in the wallet. Why don't we export some of that tactic? It seems to be working on our own citizenry, well enough.

Fuck these idiots. They didn't blow up anything in September, and they've got fuck all to do with our security. Frankly, if we're the meanest sonofbitch in the valley, why do we have to go around pulling this shit on anybody to survive, economically or otherwise?

I think the best thing that could be done is every time someone questions the war, they get pepper spray to the face and a taser to the genitals.

No one would ever ask those silly questions again.

I mean, like the guy above said, if we leave, the void could be filled by an even bigger cock, or maybe even Saddam would slip back in there and this time actually use his WOMD.
If I got called up , I would definitley not think twice about going in there and bagging me a few gooks,
I`m ready man, ready to get it on.
I only need to know one thing, 'where they are' .
I`d break off from my squad, go on a one-man mission into Saddam`s neighbourhood, and shoot his slitty-eyed-ass, then jet-pack outta there with some gold and sh*t, you just see if I dont.
Might take out Bin-Laden on the way back , depends if I got enough time really.

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...or maybe even Saddam would slip back in there and this time actually use his WOMD

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giving birth to lots of little mini-Saddams bent on revenge.

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The CIA has super-reliable reports that Iraq was trying to buy large quantities of powdered cheese from Nigeria.

Man these people have it right on the money! ;)

Yeah, this Iraq war is so very analogous to WWII.

Twat.

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The CIA has super-reliable reports that Iraq was trying to buy large quantities of powdered cheese from Nigeria.

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Makk mentioned giving the Shiites to Iran, which gives me a jumping-off point for another little diatribe on democracy.

The funny thing is that Iran is a hell of a lot closer to democracy than our regional allies, and the large younger demographic is expressing much interest in shrugging off the theocratic elements. A reformist President is now in his second term after winning in a historic landslide, although the kinds of reforms he can carry out are constitutionally limited. Anyway, it has taken about one generation for Iran to tire of theocracy, and what may emerge could have a Jeffersonian ring to it. Compare that to the situation in the US's sphere of influence: No democracy on the horizon. The explanation? Oh, it's just incompatible with their culture.

I don't buy it, and unlike Washington planners and their apologists, I actually have faith in the principle of self-determination. So I say, give the Shiites the vote. Will they then live happily ever after? Of course not. Did the United States? Well sure-- except for slavery, and killing all the Indians, and that little dustup called the Civil War, and numerous crushing monetary crises, our first hundred or so years went swimmingly. Lots of Tories would point to this history as evidence that Americans weren't ready for self-determination. That's basically the same argument you hear these days about our little colonies over there. Were the Tories right? Are we right?

In any case, our client states seem to be no closer to democracy than they were several generations ago, when we began to exert what Makk (correctly) calls hegemony over them. Not just in the Middle East, but also in Asia, as well as "our little region over here," as FDR's war secretary called the Western Hemisphere. And they certainly aren't making any economic progress, not for the vast majorities of their people.

The pundits and politicos who declare this train wreck a success are clearly insane or lying. The ones who call it a failure and scratch their heads over the mystery (paradox, puzzle, etc.) of it are equally deceived, or deceitful. When do we look at the consistent, concrete results of several generations of high-level policy, from the most powerful country in history, and say, maybe this is intentional? Maybe this is rationally calculated? When do we grow skeptical of the wonderful intentions of Washington and Wall Street? I think now's a good time.

As a citizen of the USA, I move that we start minding our own fucking business.

I really don't think the Shiites would be safe from other factions in a democracy in Iraq. You can give them a vote all you want but it doesn't matter if their neighbors are burning down their houses and shooting them in the streets.

The Shiites could vote for legislators who would pass laws against burning down houses and stuff.

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As a citizen of the USA, I move that we start minding our own fucking business.

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