Forum archives » Fights Go Here » R.I.P. Ronald Reagan

boorite
June 7, 2004 7:50 AM

Responsible commentators mustn't speak ill of the dead, so it's up to me.

I cast my first-ever Presidential vote for Ronald Reagan. It was 1984, and I was a freshman in college. I'll never forget the disappointment and disillusionment that grew within me as I proceeded to study the man's policies, both foreign and domestic. Disappointment turned to outrage as I plumbed the depths of Reagan's secret terror war in Nicaragua. I had been lied to, and I had bought it, and no one is more pissed off than a sucker who finds out he's been had.

Reagan's lies filled volumes, and the blood from his secret wars could have filled swimming pools. There was a popular little paperback, shelved in the bookstore's humor section alongside numerous Garfield books, called There He Goes Again: Ronald Reagan's Reign of Error. The constancy of the misinformation flowing from his lips, and the fact that his "mistakes" always broke his way, removed any reasonable doubt that he was a shrewd liar in the guise of an affable dumbass. The book included a letter to Reagan from John Wayne, asking him to stop all this goddamn lying.

For Reagan's second term, a revised and much expanded edition was called for.

This weekend, responsible journalists have been crowding every mic to share their warm memories of this President. None of them mentioned the hilarious time that Roberto D'Aubisson, an Administration favorite and head of El Salvador's "White Hand" death squad, danced with Nancy at Reagan's first Inaugural ball, then told reporters, "You Europeans had the right idea. You saw the Jews behind Communism and started to kill them."

Journalists' memories of Reagan seem to consist of shimmery soft-focus shots of a tall, handsome old cowboy waving in slow motion to cheering crowds while confetti snows down all around him. They remember stirring speeches and off-the-cuff wit. I confess that I remember mostly place names: Beirut, Nicaragua, Iran, Grenada, El Salvador, Libya. Also, the names of our friends: Marcos, Pinochet, Botha, Suharto, Duvalier, Somoza. And the accompanying jubilation that America was riding tall in the saddle.

As journalists recall Reagan's charming anecdotes, I remember his malicious, made-up claptrap about welfare queens driving new Cadillacs and living on prime rib. I remember his odes to free enterprise even as he pinned a third-of-a-trillion-dollar-bill to our asses for the S&L scandal over which he presided. I remember him as a backwards Robin Hood, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

More than anyone, more even than Nixon, Ronald Reagan broke the heart of anyone who had any serious hope left in American politics. He proved that a half-smart crook who looked and sounded good on TV could be a wildly popular US President as long as he faithfully read what was handed to him. And he could get out of any sleazebag scandal just by smiling, tilting his head at a slight angle, and saying, "Well..." It scarcely mattered what he said after that. He had us at "well."

Nixon at least had the courtesy to look evil. And when we found out what a liar he was, we ran him out of town like a starving coyote. And we were ashamed before the world.

Under Reagan, we got used to the idea of the President lying to us. We grew accustomed to shady business dealings and clandestine violence in faraway lands. We applauded it all. If the world looked down on us for it, that was their problem, not ours. This was Ronald Reagan's contribution to American politics.

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andydougan
June 7, 2004 7:59 AM

You forgot Saddam Hussein in his list of friends.

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xxausrottenxx
June 7, 2004 9:56 AM

nobodys gonna understand all those old punk songs that bash reagon now :(

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possums
June 7, 2004 10:13 AM

don't forget when he ordered to open fire on all those protesting UC students. he may have been governor at the time, but I wouldn't have wanted THAT for my president.

I didn't know about that book. It reminds me of Bushisms and things that we have now. I can't remember if Clinton had similar things...?

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MaKK_BeNN
June 7, 2004 12:35 PM

As much as Reagan did for conservatives in America, his presidency played a big part in helping define exactly what liberalism meant to the liberals. Politics is always a give-and-take game, but unless a president did something bad enough to get himself arrested taking glee in his death (which I'm not saying you are doing boorite) is just deranged to me. All presidents have American troops die on their watch, all Presidents make mistakes, and all Presidents are elected by the people. If the people poo-pooing on Reagan's death spent half their energy focusing on providing positive input towards their own party we'd all be better off. The president is only a part of the government, and you give up a lot to even run. There's a reason we don't have excellent people in government service, and it has nothing to do with availability of good people or the relatively small pay check.

And to that end, I really doubt we've ever had a cartoonish, evil president. Nixon has taken on that caricature, but they are all human. I really don't know if I could imagine what Clinton or Bush and their families have went through and are still going through.

Mocking someone who honorably served their country is just grotesque to me.

And speaking of Saddam Hussein, and to that end, I actually was kind of sad when I saw the pictures of him arrested. A small part of me respected the strength it must have taken to unite Iraq and conquer his political enemies. I think turning your enemies, at home and abroad, into blank symbols of evil is part of what's wrong with society. And if you still want to beat your enemies politically, understanding them is the best way to do it.

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MikeyG
June 7, 2004 12:58 PM

quote:
I think turning your enemies, at home and abroad, into blank symbols of evil is part of what's wrong with society. And if you still want to beat your enemies politically, understanding them is the best way to do it.


Wh-what? Who is this and what did he do with MaKK? You mean you're not endorsing the policy of using a face to warmonger and pile up fear about a devil incarnate?

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boorite
June 7, 2004 1:04 PM

I agree that taking glee in his death might be deranged, Makk. I also think celebrating his twisted Presidency is kind of deranged.

When Clinton dies, I suspect I'll have similar feelings.

You're right that getting elected President takes a... let's say a certain kind of person, since we mustn't say "evil."

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MaKK_BeNN
June 7, 2004 1:15 PM

Saddam Hussein might be the reason we went to war, but gleefully dancing when and if he is killed would be somewhat sick for the average American. For the people he actually wronged I couldn't judge those emotions. Likewise supposing that our troubles out of Iraq are over as long as Hussein is gone is incorrect.

If you politically didn't like Reagan, he stopped doing "damage" after his presidency. Lurking after him and taking glee in his suffering bespeaks of a more disturbing mindset.

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possums
June 7, 2004 2:00 PM

quote:
Saddam Hussein might be the reason we went to war, but gleefully dancing when and if he is killed would be somewhat sick for the average American.

That's a good point, MaKK. I knew a guy on another forum who was all dancing when Hussein died. I told him to shut his fucking mouth. I was called unpatriotic. But still it seems shitty to be happy when someone has something bad done to them. The Torah says, "I do not wish any harm to come to my enemies, nor do I wish them any glee." Or something along those lines. I don't want anything shitty to happen to anyone, really. Sure, Reagan sucked as a president, but I'm not gonna be dancing around his corpse.

Anyway, that's for the Liberal Bashing thread. This is all the negative things to say about Reagan.

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MaKK_BeNN
June 7, 2004 2:23 PM

Actually Hussein is still alive, I was talking about when he's captured, but I think I know what you mean. He might as well be as good as dead.

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xxausrottenxx
June 7, 2004 6:13 PM

quote:
Actually Hussein is still alive

no way!

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possums
June 7, 2004 6:29 PM

quote:
Actually Hussein is still alive, I was talking about when he's captured, but I think I know what you mean. He might as well be as good as dead.

Yeah, just a mistake. I actually changed the second one from dead to captured but I missed the first one.

I still think they're holding him with a leash and training him to sing "God Bless America," while feeding him apple pie and forcing him to watch "Happy Days."

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kaufman
June 7, 2004 6:35 PM

quote:
Actually Hussein is still alive
And he's using the splitter background.

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boorite
June 8, 2004 6:33 AM

quote:
If you politically didn't like Reagan, he stopped doing "damage" after his presidency.

I think the damage lived on. Think, for example, of the S&L bailout. By the early 90s, interest had ballooned the bill on that one to half a trillion bucks. And so it galls me to hear commentators holding him up as some kind of ideal. OK, maybe he was a sweet guy, and certainly no one deserves to suffer and die. But that is a separate issue from his political career, which in my view was nasty.

Boundaries, anyone? Just because he was likeable and had a terrible disease, do we need to lobotomize ourselves regarding his presidency?

quote:
Lurking after him and taking glee in his suffering bespeaks of a more disturbing mindset.

That would be disturbing, yes.

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xxausrottenxx
June 8, 2004 7:02 AM

quote:
And he's using the splitter background.

Actually i heard he was scrolling down the background list and choosing splitter

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possums
June 8, 2004 9:28 AM

quote:
quote:
And he's using the splitter background.

Actually i heard he was scrolling down the background list and choosing splitter

Are you sure? I read in the newspaper that he kept selecting splitter in the background selecting area. He may be a ruthless ex-dictator, but man, has he got taste.

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Elvis_Steel
June 8, 2004 11:28 AM

quote:
I still think they're holding him with a leash and training him to sing "God Bless America," while feeding him apple pie and forcing him to watch "Happy Days."

Surely they wouldnt go so far as to torture their prisoners with "Happy Days". Thats against the Geneva convention.

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User #30007
June 8, 2004 12:25 PM

I suspect God killed Reagan to win over the heart of Jodie Foster.

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possums
June 8, 2004 1:31 PM

quote:
I suspect God killed Reagan to win over the heart of Jodie Foster.

That was a low blow, yet a very high-brow low blow at that. Here's a buck, Sport.

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CowTipper
June 8, 2004 7:43 PM

I like Happy Days.

Eyyyyy!!!

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Spankling
June 8, 2004 8:30 PM

Well... there they go again.

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umfumdisi
June 8, 2004 10:12 PM

quote:
He proved that a half-smart crook who looked and sounded good on TV could be a wildly popular US President as long as he faithfully read what was handed to him.

Whoa, Bill Clinton died too?

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Spankling
June 9, 2004 7:43 PM

Clinton was smarter, but he didn't have as many movie lines to draw from. It's a wash, really.

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boorite
June 10, 2004 7:05 AM

Clinton bore the nickname "Slick Willy" from day 1. Reagan, on the other hand, was called "The Great Communicator." Clinton got impeached for lying about a blowjob. Reagan emerged unscathed from lying about secret wars and arms deals. And so on. I don't think Clinton ever inspired such a willing suspension of disbelief as did Reagan.

Clinton was a crook and a war criminal. That I won't contest. But he was a far more substantial intellect and, I think, a more effective President than Reagan, by far. And Clinton's supporters are not the kind of people who will shriek to have his image put on the ten-dollar bill, or to have the Pentagon renamed "The Clinton Pentagon." Clinton was not and is not idolized, and in my view, that makes him preferable to Reagan.

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DragonXero
June 10, 2004 3:33 PM

quote:
quote:
If you politically didn't like Reagan, he stopped doing "damage" after his presidency.

I think the damage lived on. Think, for example, of the S&L bailout. By the early 90s, interest had ballooned the bill on that one to half a trillion bucks. And so it galls me to hear commentators holding him up as some kind of ideal. OK, maybe he was a sweet guy, and certainly no one deserves to suffer and die. But that is a separate issue from his political career, which in my view was nasty.

Boundaries, anyone? Just because he was likeable and had a terrible disease, do we need to lobotomize ourselves regarding his presidency?

quote:
Lurking after him and taking glee in his suffering bespeaks of a more disturbing mindset.

That would be disturbing, yes.

I dont't think anyone should be forced to praise a man's life for any reason, but I don't think any man's death should be celebrated.

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kramer_vs_kramer
June 11, 2004 1:53 AM

quote:
I don't think any man's death should be celebrated.
So this means we're allowed to have a day of celebration when Thatcher finally cacks it? Not long to go now, hopefully.

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UnknownEric
June 11, 2004 7:08 AM

quote:
I don't think any man's death should be celebrated.
Except Carrot Top.

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MikeyG
June 11, 2004 12:56 PM

quote:
Clinton bore the nickname "Slick Willy" from day 1.
He should have been called "Potentially Slick Willy" because he was always trying to get jis cock wet.

quote:
Reagan, on the other hand, was called "The Great Communicator."

Yes, but I'm guessing it was due to his propensity towards meeting with psychics. Maybe he was the John Edwards of presidents.

quote:
Clinton got impeached for lying about a blowjob.

Which I still can't figure out. There were so many other valid reasons to impeach the fucker. Getting a BJ from a fat intern in the oval office? I have a feeling that if more Presidents were interested in getting BJs in the O.O., we wouldn't have so many with hardons for Middle Eastern Supremacy.

quote:
Reagan emerged unscathed from lying about secret wars and arms deals. And so on.

Which is truly an amazing coup d'etat on his part. I can't figure out how signing off on some evil shit doesn't implicate you in said evil shit.

quote:
I don't think Clinton ever inspired such a willing suspension of disbelief as did Reagan.

Maybe not for the same reasons, boorite. I certainly had to suspend my disbelief that Billy getting his knob hobbed was enough of a scandal to grind political and economic discussions/progress/etc. to a halt. I had to suspend this disbelief just to function. If I was to sit and ponder how this could be such an issue, I'd fry my fucking brain.

quote:
Clinton was a crook and a war criminal. That I won't contest. But he was a far more substantial intellect and, I think, a more effective President than Reagan, by far.

Yes, but in retrospect he will be just a grace period between major fuck-ups. Like a couple of fouls in between choking coaches and punching fans in a basketball player's career. He was evil, and I am so disappointed in his presidency, but he was nowhere near as destructive as Reagan.

quote:
And Clinton's supporters are not the kind of people who will shriek to have his image put on the ten-dollar bill, or to have the Pentagon renamed "The Clinton Pentagon."

Come on down to Harlem, boorite. Hell, come up to rich-ass Chappaqua where he now has a house. You have the Proletariat barking about the through-traffic this fucer causes to back up in Chappaqua for people who have to drive through it to work, and you have the Upper Crust (who consider themselves liberals because their fucked-up daughter/son lives an alternative lifestyle [they do drugs and crash cars]) who worship the very ground he walks on. Down in Harlem, they love his ass. People in the ghettos and the shitty areas of Westchester County and NYC love Clinton like he was their own father.

quote:
Clinton was not and is not idolized, and in my view, that makes him preferable to Reagan.

He's very much idolized in NY where his wife is our "crusading" congresswoman. She was one of the first members of Congress to speak out against the Iraqi fuck-up while it was still in its birth-throes, although she DID sign off on the invasion itself. I'm beginning to loathe all politicians. Except Kucinich. I miss that merry elf.

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boorite
June 11, 2004 1:16 PM

Be realistic, Mikey. not even the most rabid Clinton-worshipers would suggest naming the Pentagon after him.

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MikeyG
June 11, 2004 1:18 PM

Okay, you might be right. I don't think most of the people who worship Clinton around here know what the Pentagon is.

We just have middle and upper class people getting a dreamy look in their eyes when they speak of Billary.

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MaKK_BeNN
June 13, 2004 5:56 PM

quote:
Boundaries, anyone? Just because he was likeable and had a terrible disease, do we need to lobotomize ourselves regarding his presidency?

Outside of his politics, I kind of view Reagan, like Kennedy, as a mascot for America, and I think this explains much of his popularity. I don't think it's as simple as him being amiable. He very easily embodied America's struggle against economic difficulties and communism. I think if he died outside of the heat of an election year there wouldn't be as much contention about his death. I recognize Kennedy as simply a symbol of America despite his politics. I don't think anyone would interpret a lefty showing reverance for Reagan's death as being "soft on the right", which seems to be some of the attitude I'm picking up on.

Both Kennedy and Reagan have a lot in common though, which was being tough on the Soviets, and I don't think it's by coincidence that they are both maybe the 2 most popular presidents of the 2nd half of the 20th century.

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Spankling
June 13, 2004 7:28 PM

Clinton scores higher in popularity than Raygun during his presidency.

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umfumdisi
June 13, 2004 9:06 PM

Poor ol' Nixon received only a headline or two when he kicked off back in 1994. Of course, he was a liar AND an asshole.

[hr]

Hey, does anyone remember Clinton's "war" against Iraq?

"At a September 3 press conference, Clinton stated that Washington was responding to Iraqi repression against the Kurds. He added, however, that Washington's goal was to "increase America's ability to contain Iraq over the long run....When our interest in the security of our friends and allies is threatened, we will act with force if necessary."

In a news conference the same day, Perry said, "The issue is not simply the Iraqi attack on Erbil," adding that the U.S. government did not want to get mired in the factional fighting among the Kurdish groups. Perry emphasized that Washington's priority was "protection of the flow of oil" in the Mideast. The government of Saddam Hussein, he stated, was "a threat to security and stability" in the region."

And here's the entire article:
http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6032/6032_2.html

Post #141665link

andydougan
June 14, 2004 7:15 AM

Yeah, and after Saddam "expelled" the weapons inspectors (i.e. America withdrew them), Clinton and Blair initiated regular terrorist attacks on Iraqi soft targets which continued until the invasion. And yet Clinton is widely viewed as having had a more rational foreign policy than Bush.

Post #141689link

MaKK_BeNN
June 14, 2004 9:50 AM

I definitely disagreed with Clinton's policy of "good enough" bombings and missile attacks. I was outraged when he just lobbed missiles into Afghanistan. Either follow through, or don't attack, at least until technology catches up to the point where "precision" bombings against individual targets is anything more than a hail mary play.

That said I think that was considered acceptible policy, to counter Iraq's illegal manuvering with proportionate attacks against acceptable targets. He didn't have the political will to go after Saddam, and he didn't want to look like he was letting Saddam go unchecked. Clinton was good at maintaining the status quo and keeping as much of the international community liking him as possible, and that might contribute to his presidency's lack of luster.

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boorite
June 14, 2004 1:14 PM

I thought he just lobbed missiles into Sudan.

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andydougan
June 14, 2004 2:59 PM

Nah, I think that was after.

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MaKK_BeNN
June 14, 2004 7:37 PM

Clinton sent a strike targetting Mullah Omar while he was on the fence about the whole Usama-harboring business. The near miss sent him over the edge and made him a fanatical Usama supporter. Shortly thereafter Usama became Osama in an attempt to confound the search.

But yes Clinton also lobbed missiles into the Sudan.

Post #141792link

boorite
June 15, 2004 11:03 AM

thx

Post #141865link

Forum archives » Fights Go Here » R.I.P. Ronald Reagan

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