Wow... and here I was thinking I was part of a tiny little minority. Cool! :)

I should add that I am not one of those who think it should be outlawed completely and under all circumstances. Simple ethical ideas state that when the taking of one life will prevent two from being lost, such as a mother needing to terminate or else both she and her baby will die, such an action is regrettable but necessary.

Apart from those kinds of circumstances, though, I have always felt that a right to life always has precedence over a right to individual freedom, especially when that restriction of freedom is self-initiated, as is the case in most pregnancies.

Then again, I live in a country where basic medical care is free for everybody, no matter how poor you are, and nobody will ever be turned away from a hospital because their credit rating is not good enough. My wife has a friend who lived in the US for two years, and she told us a horror story about how it cost her $us20,000 to have a baby. They came to her with a contract while she was in mid-labour, to get her to sign for the painkillers she had asked for. Her itemised bill actually included the number of cotton swabs used, and the number of pillowcases and sheets put on her bed. *shudder*

If a young woman gets pregnant, her parents disown her, and her scumbag boyfriend runs off, she will be able to get a hospital bed and a doctor to deliver her baby. No doubt in a country where you must pay for medical insurance (or get it from your employer) or pay the full price of your medical treatment, an abortion is cheaper than a birth.

How depressing... I think I will go to bed now.

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This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

My issue is with categorizing people as "pro-life". Am I anti-life because I am pro-choice? No, I am not. Similarly, the people who call people who are pro-choice "pro-abortion" are incorrect.

I am not pro-abortion, but I am in favor of the government not being allowed to control what a woman chooses to do to her body.

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I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

What disturbs me about the one out of six number is that it is a large number of people who must be convinced that they are absolutely right about a very murky issue, viz: What is a human life? The answer isn't so easy as citing the Bible, which actually provides less than no support for their position. Equating human life with "a unique set of genes" can be dispensed with pretty quickly, too, in my experience. So you start getting into some pretty intricate areas of moral reasoning where certainty is ruled out. And yet, here's one out of six who not only think they have the one true answer but are willing to call the cops on you if you disagree. Scary.

re: "pro-life," I have the same problem with the term, but that's what the poll uses, so for this discussion I'm stuck with it.

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What others say about boorite!

Eerie: The percentage of Americans with no health insurance is roughly equal to the number who think that abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

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What others say about boorite!

What it comes down to for me is this:

Those people who are pro-life are generally so because of religious reasons (e.g., evangelical Christian). I think this is a fair characterization. It is not for health reasons, public safety, etc. etc... It is purely a religious point of view. This debate is less about saving fetuses or morality than it is about one group trying to force it's reglious views on everybody else.

The goverment, constitutionally, is not in the business of promoting one religion over another. As such, it really isn't the government's business to make abortion legal or illegal. I am frankly, aghast that there even needs to be a law making abortion legal. However, if there has to be a law, Roe v. Wade is a good compromise.

This article by Carl Sagan is quite good:

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

quote:

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What it comes down to for me is this:

Those people who are pro-life are generally so because of religious reasons (e.g., evangelical Christian). I think this is a fair characterization. It is not for health reasons, public safety, etc. etc... It is purely a religious point of view. This debate is less about saving fetuses or morality than it is about one group trying to force it's reglious views on everybody else.

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I've met wackos and respectable sorts on both sides. I fall in the pro-choice camp (you decide about the wacko/respectable faction). Whatever the stat-of-the-minute, this issue is indicative of the polar nature of the American public these days, as were the presidential election results.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

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In general this is the case, but just because most pro-lifers are irrational idiots doesn't mean the pro-life position can be dismissed out of hand. I suspect a lot of pro-choicers only hold that view because they're disgusted by the type of people who are usually pro-life, and don't want to become like them. That's equally irrational.
I can see a lot of legitimate arguments on both sides, and would hate to have the responsibility of legislating one way or the other.

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Speaking of election results:
"Gore won under a strict-counting scenario and he won under a loose-counting scenario. He won if you count “hanging chads” and he won if you counted a “dimpled chad.” He won if you counted a dimpled chad only in the presence of another dimpled chad on the same ballot — the so-called “Palm Beach” standard. He even won if you counted only a fully-punched chad. He won if you counted partially filled oval on an optical scan and he won if you counted only a fully-filled optical scan. He won if you fairly counted the absentee ballots. No matter how you count it, if everyone who legally voted in Florida had had a chance to see their vote matter, Al Gore would be sitting in the Oval Office today. "

full story here

Very interesting I think. Too bad Gore's lawyers didn't even argue for a full out recount (even though the supreme court would have rejected it anyway).

Okay, responses go to the Fights Here board I'm sure. :)

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"Fascist Clay was my most favorite totalitarian boxer!" - Indie Rock Pete from Diesel Sweeties

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Apart from those kinds of circumstances, though, I have always felt that a right to life always has precedence over a right to individual freedom, especially when that restriction of freedom is self-initiated, as is the case in most pregnancies.

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I am neither "Pro-Life nor "Pro-Choice". Is it so difficult to ask for a society with as much wealth as the first world's to create a social or moral constuct in which the carrying of an unborn child to full term and offering it a chance at bat is not purely an economic decision?

I can only hope.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

quote:

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I am neither "Pro-Life nor "Pro-Choice". Is it so difficult to ask for a society with as much wealth as the first world's to create a social or moral constuct in which the carrying of an unborn child to full term and offering it a chance at bat is not purely an economic decision?

I can only hope.

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Frankly, I get sick of all the Bush-bashing that constantly goes on. I honestly would not rather have Gore in office. Frankly, neither one of them is fully fit to run the country, but from the sentiments I've seen, people honestly think Gore is halfway competent. I strongly disagree, and think that this country would be no better off with him in office. The biggest problem is that people think they have to vote Republican or Democrat, neither of whom are really that far left or right, and neither of whom are worth shit. I'm a moderate, leaning toward the right in many ways. I just think that neither party is worth anything. Also, people think two-dimensionally when considering parties, and that's how we're supposed to think, makes us easier to herd into a certain category.
By the way, I'm pro-guns, and I honestly could care less about abortions. Guns affect me, abortions do not. Maybe if it affected me, I'd care. I do find it horribly hypocritical that the Left wing hates guns that kill people, but like killing babies, while the right wing hates killing babies, yet likes guns that kill people. So it seems to me that the choice is: "Who is better to kill, adults, or babies?"

That's my take on it all anyway.

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

This is very true.

If abortion were ever illegalized, I would probably seek out an underground (yet safe) clinic and work with them so that the horrors of those back alley coat hanger abortions could be prevented.

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I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

The man is a joke.

Clinton got plenty of bashing when he was in office. The only difference is that he is intelligent and well spoken, so for lack of anything in that realm to make fun of, they looked at his less than sterling personal behavior.

If Bush's intelligence and manner of speaking were not so immediately lampoonable, there would be a lot more attention paid to his behavior in the past, and I'm sure there would be plenty uncovered about the present.

I'm not saying that delving into a President's life is a good thing, because I don't think it is. I'm just pointing out that creating an endless supply of readily apparent joke fodder is a brilliant way to prevent scandal.

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I am a delicate fucking flower. https://beacons.ai/jesskent

DX, I understand everything except why that makes you sick of the Bush-bashing. I didn't want either of them in office either, so I bash both. Bush more because he's the one who got in. Gore's not really topical anymore. Anyway, if you expect people to stop bashing the president, you'd better move to a country that doesn't allow free speech.

Re: abortion, I'm pro-choice.
[list][*]I have at least as much of a problem with people creating a child that they don't want and aren't fit to care for as with prematurely terminating a life, maybe more.
[*]Given that abortions are going to happen anyway, it's best for all concerned, including the fetus, if they happen in a safe environment.
[*]It's not like the government is forcing you to have an abortion if you don't want one, and I can't imagine they ever will. Under current US law, you are free to act in accordance with whatever your beliefs may be.
[*]As far as I know, a fetus in the early stages cannot be demonstrated to possess sentience or even consciousness. The way I see it, if you are opposed to killing such a being, you'd better be vegetarian as well. I am interested in hearing well-reasoned counterpoints to this argument (though maybe they should go in Fights Go Here).
[*]This planet needs fewer people, not more. Callous but true.
[*]Whatever the deal is with the afterlife or lack thereof, I can't imagine that once you're dead, you'll really give a crap about how or when or why you died. So even assuming the fetus were capable of knowing it was alive, knowing it was about to die, or caring whether it lived or died, I don't think it would care once it was dead. I have roughly the same attitude towards my own death: if you try to kill me, I'll probably try to stop you, but once you succeed, I don't guess it'll make a difference to me.
[/list]Just my opinion. Fortunately, I've yet to be in a situation where I have to act on it.

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The what mentioned above is total fiction. Please don't take it seriously!

Imagine going to a non-political forum you visit for entertainment (comics, music, midget throwing) and having 90% of the posters on that board be conservative republicans. That guttural noise emanating from your thorax is called empathy.

As I said, I don't want to limit what's talked about at all. Though most of you are considerably left of me on many issues, (no small task with me being a self-proclaimed moderate) I still enjoy listening to your opinions on politics. In fact, on most everything. It would, however, be nice to have a separate political forum to discuss them in since I mostly come here for comic relief and do sometimes get somewhat aggravated at the glib comments made by a predominantly left room.

You now have DX saying the same thing. It might not seem like a problem to those of you with the majority political tilt, but it is to those of us in the minority. The same way you didn't want to have to keep reading "I'm new, how do you all like my comics?", so a "Read my Damn Comics" thread was added.

Seriously, Brad, at least consider a political forum. Or something separating the goofiness and seriousness.

I've wanted for sometime to get your guys' opinions on this issue, but have put it off, not wanting to call wirthling a goat fucker. But, seriously, if we can do it civily, some of you pro-choice people help me out here. I have a hard time seeing the logic in some of the pro-choice beliefs. Here are mine:

- All life should be protected

- Life begins in the womb, not magically upon exit thereof

- Life doesn't start at conception, but at the beginning of brain function (roughly 5 weeks if memory serves)

- Abortion should be allowed up to the point when life begins, but not after

- Since defining the beginning of life is likely a philosphical question never to be objectively answered, it is better to err on the side of protecting life than killing it.

I asked my favorite uncle once whether he was pro-life or pro-choice. He said pro-choice so I asked him why. He said he didn't feel he had the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body. I countered that you can tell a woman what she can and can't do with her 2-month old baby. Yes, he said, but that is different, the baby being out of the body. Thinking I had grasped his meaning, I said, oh, so you believe life begins at birth? No, he said, he believes life begins at conception.

This kind of "logic" escapes me. I can understand the merits of arguing a different time in gestation that life begins, but I consider it not only assinine but amoral to argue that, yes, the baby's alive, and yes, it can still be aborted.

I realize that abortion is probably the most controversial and divisive issue out there. I hope we can avoid some of the bile since this is truly offered in the spirit of wanting to understand your opinion.

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I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

I hadn't seen evil_d's post before submitting mine. Let me ask you _d, since you believe this:

are you therefore against abortion except in the early stages? And if not, why?

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I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

quote:

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I hadn't seen evil_d's post before submitting mine. Let me ask you _d, since you believe this:

are you therefore against abortion except in the early stages? And if not, why?

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I am against abortions being carried out using Daisy Cutters.

Clinton bashing has been over the top for year and we were all free to join in. This is no different. Both people deserve it.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

Regarding where political chats should go: I think they belong in general discussion. Any supposedly devoted polical forum is just going to evolve into conversations about absolutely anything. That's just us. Basically, if you don't want to read or argue politics in this forum, you should probably just not read the thread, or read it at a time when you are feeling like you want to be serious rather than silly.

Regarding abortion: The idea that anti-abortion sentiments and blind religious zealotry go hand in hand is pretty offensive to me. If I said that all pro-choice people were Satanists, I don't think it would go down well. I'm Christian, but not a zealotor a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, my objection to abortion has precisely zero to do with theology and ideology, but is completely based upon the idea that killing human beings is bad.

Basically, I see those little unborn babies as human beings with all the rights attributed to any innocent human being. No matter what financial situation their mothers might be in, no matter what circumstances they were conceived under, they do not deserve to be killed. The only situation I can envision in which abortion would be necessary, though regrettable, was mentioned earlier in the thread - a pregnant woman will die if she does not abort, and the child will die with her. Simple ethics state that taking one life to prevent the loss of two is justifiable. It is sad, but has to be done.

Before you dismiss an anti-abortionist as irrational and emotive, consider their viewpoint - millions of innocent unborn children dead every year because of money, society, or plain old selfishness. I am not ashamed to say that I have cried about it many times in the past, and will cry about it again in the future. That said, people who bomb clinics and shoot abortion doctors are just filth - by killing they are invalidating their cause and becoming murderers themselves.

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This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

quote:

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As I said, I don't want to limit what's talked about at all. Though most of you are considerably left of me on many issues, (no small task with me being a self-proclaimed moderate) I still enjoy listening to your opinions on politics. In fact, on most everything. It would, however, be nice to have a separate political forum to discuss them in since I mostly come here for comic relief and do sometimes get somewhat aggravated at the glib comments made by a predominantly left room.

You now have DX saying the same thing. It might not seem like a problem to those of you with the majority political tilt, but it is to those of us in the minority. The same way you didn't want to have to keep reading "I'm new, how do you all like my comics?", so a "Read my Damn Comics" thread was added.

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I disagree.

I completely agree. An argument along these lines is no argument at all. I'm an atheist. I'm pro-life. Raise issues on my beliefs, not on my belief structure. Cardinal sin.

I'm with evil_d. I really think if we want to continue it, we should do it here.

Sorry if I seem to be exclusively commenting on your views in that thread, evil_d. Truth is, I accidently overlooked the other replies in this thread. Woops.

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I ate a hooker half a bottle of knife.

I thought this fell well within the bounds of "babbling and silliness."

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What others say about boorite!