Which, of course, means that it's not justice.

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Somewhere in this country there are bound to be pissed off people who will get done boozing at their local bar, stop off at 7-11 for smokes on the way home, and decide to beat the shit out of the guy behind the counter because he looks Arabic.

I've got fingers crossed that people will hold onto common sense.

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I heard a mosque down in Texas had 7 bullets fired into it....

how fucking pathetic.

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"Fascist Clay was my most favorite totalitarian boxer!" - Indie Rock Pete from Diesel Sweeties

Of course mosques are getting shot at. Yes, it's pathetic. And although the media are issuing pleas for sanity, they bear some responsibility.

Something about the US news coverage and political speeches disturbs me deeply. Killing non-combatants is never, ever justified, but we only seem to invoke this principle with respect to official enemies. The conflict is cast in terms of good us versus evil them. Yesterday, I heard a newscaster say that the terrorists attacked us "because they hate Western culture." Rallying around the flag is called for at a time like this, but Washington's one-sided spiel blinds us to political reality, which places us at incalculable risk. That is what Tuesday taught me-- not that "radical Muslims" "hate Western culture" (although maybe they do).

The missing half of the truth, apparent to anyone who is interested, is that the US government has a record of lawless and violent behavior abroad. It is not a secret, and it does not require any conspiracy theories. Pointing this out must not be understood as saying, in any way, that the victims of this attack deserved their fate, or that the attackers were anything other than villains. Quite the opposite-- it is saying that if it's wrong when they do it, it is also wrong when we do it. Furthermore, by aggressive pursuit of "our interests" in other people's backyards, Washington has been gambling with our lives, and if we want to protect ourselves from further catastrophes, we have to face this uncomfortable fact.

In short, Washington already had us in a war, and until Tuesday, we had the privilege of not noticing.

For years and years I've been talking about the damage done overseas by American guns and money, and I've often gotten the response, "Who cares?" As if these are just brown or yellow people in some backward place, and I'm some kind of bleeding heart pussy for bringing it up. Well, now we've lost a chunk of Manhattan, and we are talking about a possible ground war in very tough terrain in a country on the other side of the planet, and we're requesting the cooperation of their most sympathetic neighbor, who happens to be a nuclear power. So I want to ask those America-firsters, now do you care? If you can't understand compassion and responsibility and basic human rights, can you at least understand the pain and risk to ourselves?

I know that by saying this, I open myself up to certain misreadings. Also, I hate to bring such seriousness to the one place I come to have fun. But I say it here because I've got to say it somewhere, and if there's any group who might listen, it's you all. And I'm just sick of the B-movie version of this thing. It's a disgrace to those who have died in this war, as well as those who will.

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What others say about boorite!

boorite for president in 2004!

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"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

You're right, boorite. I was trying to find a way to say that myself that didn't make me seem heartless. I think you did a good job. And you've got my vote for President. "Boorite: He's Not Gore or Bush!"

The fact is, the US is arguably the most powerful nation in the world, with the strongest military in the world, and the talk we've been hearing about how this could have been prevented by an increased defense budget or more restrictive immigration laws is disingenuous at best. We need to stop and think: surely there are other first-world Western nations -- the UK or France to name a couple -- that, by that logic, would have been even easier targets for this sort of attack, but no one bothers to hit them. Why not? Evidently they haven't done as much to piss people off.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that Tuesday's attack was deserved or justified, especially not in light of the fact that most of the victims were civilians who had little or no direct involvement in the US's actions overseas. But I can understand where a Middle Easterner or two might be angry with us. Earlier in this thread, I linked to the US Socialist Party's web site, and they said something there that I think bears repeating: "We will renew our own efforts to transform the United States into a country that has no enemies---not because our enemies have been vanquished, but because we are capable of getting along with our neighbors."

On the topic of racial tension, here's a good article I found in the Post at lunch:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21476-2001Sep12.html

And here's the text of an e-mail I received when I got back:

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Subject: Candlelighting in US 7pm Friday

Candle Lighting-Please participate

Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. step out your door, stop your car, or step out of your establishment and light a candle. We will show the world that Americans are strong and united together against terrorism. Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We need to reach everyone across the United States quickly.

The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE TERRORISM.

We need press to cover this-- we need the world to see.

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Well said, boorite. The US sanctions on Iraq alone have caused around a million civilian deaths (and these are the American figures!). Sanctions against Libya and Afghanistan have caused thousands more, not to mention those who've died in the bombing raids against these countries. The American government says that the west must retaliate for Tuesday's events: what they forget is that this travesty itself was retaliation.

The sad thing is, the Western media as a whole has been deliberately ignoring the bad things the US military has been up to for a very long time. They don't lie or misreport it (well, not often) but they quite often simply ignore it, don't mention it. The US military is only ever sent into foreign territory to fight if it is good for US business. The politicians can bleat and bray all they like, but that is the simple truth - if it isn't in America's direct interest, the "world's policeman" doesn't give a shit. The US never laid a finger to stop the Indonesian militias slaughtering East Timorese by the thousands, because Indonesia are a trading partner. However, Kuwait is a US-friendly oil-producer. Oh, and don't get me started on poor old Central America, where some countries get the living shit bombed out of them if they try to exercise their rights and get a democratically-elected government...

...and the commercial media outlets just don't mention it, so the American people are not told what their own military is up to.

I should mention, and everyone else has, that I am deeply saddened by the horrible events of the past few days. No matter what the US military may have done, the innocent citizens of the USA did not deserve such horror. My deepest sympathy goes out to anyone here who has been personally affected.

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This signature has performed an illegal operation and has been shut down.

I really don't have the time or the emotional energy to read all the posts but I would like to say some stuff that has gone through my small little head the last couple of days.

I was shocked! I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I actually got to see the 2nd plane hit live(on TV) and it blew me away. I had no idea what to think or how to feel. After the first hours I started thinking of friends that I knew worked in that area and me and my fiance became even more worried about it. Luckily we have located them all and they were all there but got out safe and sound!

It also hit me hard due to the fact that I was right there exactly one week earlier. We got our pictures back that day and there is a picture of me with the WTC directly behind me. That really scared me for a bit. One week earlier and what would have happened? It is a scary thought.

I live in Detroit, Michigan so you all know.

I have no idea what to think or what the US should do. I have gone through many different emotions on this ordeal ranging from sadness, shock, curiosity, fear, and anger. When in my anger mode I feel the need for strong and deliberate retribution for these acts but when not angry I rationalize the reality of the consequences of strong vengence towards people and countries involved in this tragedy.

As mentioned I think by DexX, sorry if it was someone else, the media likes to hide the terrible things we have done to people in other parts of the world. He is 100% correct and if you do believe that we have played by the rules in the last 10-20 years or so you really need to stop believing everything Dan Rather tells you. Does this make what happens right? No, but it is a point that does need consideration.

I am not fully sure about the whole Binny Boy situation but if he is the culprit behind this attack this is just his revenge for something we did to him which in turn was us repaying him back for something he did to us and so on and so on. So we retaliate for this and the string continues. That is my thinking anyway. It is a never ending cycle that I believe no one can put a stop to. Even if you eradicate the main terrorist groups there are citizens in the world that will continue their fight. Obviously these people have no regards to himan life so us eradicating terrorists or even whole civilizations will not stop this. Is it right for us to kill innocent people becasue they did? Is that going to stop anything? I do not know, I don't think any of us know either.

Sorry if I am rambling!

Also I want it on record that I believe that the plane that went don in Pennsylvania was shot down by figher planes but the Gov't doesn't want to take heat from that just yet although if true, I believe it was the best thing to do at that point.

I stated this about 2 hours after the report of that plane crash hit the news and I still stand by regardless of the cell phone conversations.

Well that is it ifor know, sorry to ramble with my feelings and views, they might seem cluttered and crazy but that is what has been in my head these last few days!

I do hope the flights start beginning or some of you might need to find my mom in London and give her a place to hang as she is supposed to return tommorow and our airport isn't running.

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"I know how toast works."

This is very true, and it may be something that people -- American or otherwise -- don't usually realize or think about. If you're a US resident and you want to find out what your government or military are up to, you have to go to foreign or underground press. The American media aren't involved in some vast conspiracy -- as far as I know -- but for whatever reason, they just don't report, or only give limited space to, all the terrible things this country does abroad.

I recommend people read a few of the stories on Alternet. Admittedly, it is a decidedly leftist organization, but it is running some stories that the mainstream media won't mention even to discredit them.

I'm sorry if I sound inconsiderate, talking politics at a time like this. Quite honestly, as an American citizen (who is still waiting to hear about a few friends/relatives from NYC who probably didn't get hurt), I just want my government to stop doing things that make terrorists want to kill me and my friends.

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The what mentioned above is total fiction. Please don't take it seriously!

Great post boorite (and others). I gotta agree. While there may be times when human rights are involved that I feel it is good to be involved, there are times when it's way out of hand and the first thing I told my mom on the phone was that as shocked as I am, I wasn't surprised this happened. It was coming beause of the amount of grief we as a country have spread with some of our foreign policy.

I'm off to give blood today. I hope all of you and your families are well and have told each other that you love them. If you haven't read it, go to Goats. There's a very touching story in a post by the creator, Jon, that you should all read. He's from NY.

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"Fascist Clay was my most favorite totalitarian boxer!" - Indie Rock Pete from Diesel Sweeties

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To Clinton critics: He was every bit as ready as any Republican to resort to international violence.

To Clinton defenders: He was every bit as ready as any Republican to resort to international violence.

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Thanks all for thoughtful posts. I don't know offhand of another online forum where I could expect that.

DexX, it's just as you say with Indonesia, but worse. Not only did Washington not lift a finger to stop the 25 years of slaughter under Suharto; it increased military and economic aid in direct proportion to the atrocities. Clinton, a supposed liberal, refused to even meet with East Timorese Nobel peace laureate Jose Ramos-Horta, while entertaining the Indonesian billionaire Riady family at least nine times (by my count). All those billions in aid during the Asian monetary crisis of several years ago were flatly illegal, and the only mention of that I ever found in the press (and I looked) was a month later, and very weird and infuriating. Our record of this kind of thing with Indonesia goes all the way back to 1965, at least. Too exhausting.

I really get outrage fatigue when I think too much about this stuff, and so I have bursts of political consciousness followed by periods of determined apathy. Right now would be an especially easy time to shut my mouth and grab a flag and jump on the war wagon. I mean we are justly vengeful toward whoever did this, and everyone is talking about pulling together. The Sierra Club, for example, has officially sworn off of "Bush-bashing" or even appearing "disrespectful." I'm tempted to do likewise, but I think it's more important than ever to try to understand what led to this horror, and that means an honest appraisal of US actions abroad.

Few Americans are going to like it, or even tolerate it, I'm afraid. That's how they get you, isn't it? In good times, you can't criticize, because hey, times are good. In bad times, you can't criticize, because then you're divisive when the country needs to stand together. But I'm pretty sure that if we go kill the bad guys and don't change our policy, something worse will happen.

God, I'm remembering 1991, Metairie, Louisiana, just outside New Orleans, on Vets and Causeway, a "Support Our Troops" rally with buzz-cut high school jock boys ranting in traffic and shaking "honk for USA" signs, and everyone seemed to be honking but me. I told my wife (who was sitting next to me) that a war is not a fucking pep rally, and she agreed. When the demonstrators noticed, they hit my car and shook it and screamed at us. They were commanding me to "honk for USA," or else.

Whee, those were the days, and now they're back.

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What others say about boorite!

What would Picard do? Why can we get leadership like that?

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

Yes. "Retaliate" is a word reserved for us and our allies. I've only heard one news report ever of a Palestinian "retaliation," and it just about made me drop my shotglass. I did a comic on the subject once:

[Click to view comic: 'Feel this']

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What others say about boorite!

Ah, I had a regular motif going.

[Click to view comic: 'Tonight on Food Network']

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What others say about boorite!

I'm sure this is how we all feel now.
:)

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

For a long time, people in the U.S. have looked at what's going on in Israel and thought, "Don't they realize that they're in a senseless cycle of violence? Jews kill Arabs. Arabs kill Jews in response. Jews kill Arabs in response. And so on. Can't they recognize that this is madness?" Now, it seems we have been caught up in this cycle of violence, too.

I saw an interview with a Muslim who was talking about how they, just like us, want to strike back when they are attacked. He claimed that many innocent women and children were killed when we shot missiles into Afghanistan in 1998, and that they are outraged over it. Given what I have been reading about how poor our intelligence operations are in Islamic countries, I do not doubt that we were not as precise with those missile attacks as we had hoped. To them, it was a terrorist act of aggression, and many of them vowed to retaliate. Who does that sound like?

Mind you, their desire to retaliate does not justify the actions taken Tuesday. It just goes to show what their motivations might have been. We should keep that in mind when we begin to retaliate for the terror attacks. We better be damn sure we are catching/killing the right people.

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"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

I was a little careless with my use of "them" and "they" in that previous post. I did not mean to imply that more than a very small minority of muslims felt personally under attack by previous U.S. "retaliatory" acts. There may be more than a small minority that feel that way, but I'm not sure how many. I suspect that the vast majority of muslims are average, peace-loving people...

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"And Wirthling isn't worth the paper he isn't printed on."

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I'm sure this is how we all feel now.
:)

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The Jews and the Arabs have been fighting over that same God-forsaken, all-but-barren wad of real estate for thousands of years. Let them.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

The Jews and the Arabs have been fighting over that same God-forsaken, all-but-barren wad of real estate for thousands of years. Let them.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

Sorry about the double post.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

Israel figures now's a good time to invade Palestine.

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What others say about boorite!

I have a very "bad" veiw on this by the world's standerds, because I am a Apostolic Pentacostal and beleive in the whole bible-

God gave the Hebrew people the land of palestine in the book of Genesis.(period) The Jews built temples to God there, which were destroyed by Isreal's enemies and the Jews were brought into captivity by the Babylonians, Egyptians, Etc, because they disobey God and turn from his ways. Nevertheless, the land of Palastine and the city of Jeuruselam belong to the Jews(Isrealies), and they have given away much of what they won with the help of god in the 7 days war and other wars they have had in the last few decades. They once controled all of Sinai, up the coast of Lebbanon, and further to the west of the Dead sea. Now they have given all that away in sake of "peace". Now they are still being attacked, and people feel that they should sit back and take the punishment by the PLO and other Muslim groups that want Jeruselam for their own. Isreal is the richest land in that area(agriculturally), and others who have lived in the desert are trying to expand their nation to encompas it for their own purposes. Nonetheless, I belive God gave that to them and they can defend it against terrorists like Yasser Arafat.

BTW The land is not God-forsaken, its the exact opposite.

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I ...beleive in the whole bible-

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