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1.
to boorite:
i hope ivy and my falling out doesn't hurt our relationship, though i understand that's easier said than done when someone hurts the one you love, even unintentionally.
it really didn't start out as personal, it just got that way when she got defensive and started flaming me on AIM and in the thread. either way it was retarded of me to even broach the subject on something i admit isn't even that important to me. i was trying to tell a friend she was putting me in a pickle since she was publicly debating something in a way i felt contradicted what she'd told me in private, but something that had every sign of being taken personal and blowing up in my face, and did.
either way, sorry for the pickle you now find yourself in because of the pickle i was trying to find my way out of. if this has to be the end of our intraweb friendship, either because you're mad or because it will make your life easier, remember, we'll always have sodomy
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 06:03am ( reply :: delete )
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2.
from boorite:
Since you asked: From my vantage point, you started a personal fight with our friend ivy over something you admit doesn't warrant it. Today I read the forums and find that you are accusing her of starting the personal fight with you.
So the question is, who made it personal? Who first took a break from the discussion about whether or not IP checking works in order to fire off a message saying "you this, you that?"
The answer to that question is the answer to who made it personal, and as far as I can tell, it was you. Feel free to correct me if ivy was the first to bring up your conduct.
Furthermore, you're either deliberately falsifying that fact in public, or you're unaware of the significance of pre-emptively PMing a friend and calling her a liar, and in your eyes, her response really does seem like an attack out of the clear blue sky. Knowing you, I suspect it's the latter. You really have convinced yourself that she attacked you without any provocation, and she is just unreasonable. To me, it looks a lot like earlier episodes with others where you say something inflammatory and then seem shocked when the other is inflamed. There is no reason to be mystified. Just look at the facts, and you will see that the story you tell yourself of an unprovoked personal attack is simply false. Indeed, you have it precisely backward. Go back to the simple question: Whose fingers first clicked the PM link, typed "you this and you that," and hit "send?"
It's practically the simplest question I can think of, and yet I'm frustrated because I doubt you will see the significance of it. It's OK to be wrong, or else we're all doomed, but I don't think you're going to see it that way at this moment. I think your need to be right is going to make it absolutely necessary that ivy is the one who started it and made it personal, despite the simple answer to the simple question above.
And as before, you'll come to deeply regret your role in this unnecessary fight, and you'll eventually go through some painful self-recrimination. It doesn't have to be that way today, and you don't have to feel worse than you already do for any longer than you already have. Just set the record straight and put the thing to right.
The reason I'm telling you this is that we are friends. I don't think you're like crabby/lildeucecoup, who is a sadist and probably a sociopath. I wouldn't give that fucker anything but a hard slap in the jaw for his trouble. With you, I get the sense that the problem is not that you like to hurt people but that you're deeply afraid of being wrong. You are probably in a better position than I am to know if that's true. In any case, we've been through exactly this before, and it will follow the same course unless we do something different.
So here I am doing something different. It's what I think a friend would do, as opposed to what I would tell crabby, which is "go fuck yourself." If you hope all this doesn't end our friendship, then you have a choice in the matter. Consider and respond the way a friend would.
I also want to tell you that you're deeply mistaken in your evaluation of ivy's character, and at some point, probably soon, you'll realize what a mistake it was to say those things to her and then repeat them with emphasis in public. Your denouncing her can't fail to be a problem between you and me, and I think you know that. So if you're not happy with it, simply clear it up. And if you don't, I'm still here to tell you that you're wrong about her, and the person who started this mess was you, and the person who can straighten it out is you.
From boorite :: 08-17-07 03:56pm ( reply :: delete )
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3.
to boorite:
"The answer to that question is the answer to who made it personal, and as far as I can tell, it was you. Feel free to correct me if ivy was the first to bring up your conduct."
me bringing up her prior admission didn't make it personal in the sense of emotional involvement and attacks on character, which is the sense of the word here. i had no emotional involvement in the subject whatsoever until she became emotionally involved and personally attacked me in an AIM convo. even by your above standard, though, it's she who made it publicly "personal," as you can quickly check by looking at the thread and who mentions our private conversations first.
the rest i have no desire to debate you on. no good can come of it. you're a husband defending his wife, and rightly so. you're also someone i still consider a friend despite the precarious position that friendship now finds itself in. i don't want to do anything to further jeopardize that than i already did when, as we've both now said, i foolishly tread on emotionally-charged material that i've admitted meant little to me.
take care and sorry again.
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 04:26pm ( reply :: delete )
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4.
from boorite:
You responded as I guessed you might. It seems you're in denial about some very clear facts, and I want to set you straight.
Your PMs to her were a personal attack, pure and simple, stating as they did that she was deliberately misrepresenting herself. You were the one to go ad hominem, to get personal.
Let's get those facts straight. Yes or no:
Does ivy's alleged lying have anything to do with whether or not IP checking works?
Does her alleged lying instead have to do with her, personally? Simple questions. Yes or no.
Didn't you in fact form this allegation yourself and write it down and raise the topic by sending it to her in a private message?
When she responded that she never lied or misrepresented her actions but in fact told moderators and regulars about them herself, didn't you persist in the allegation?
And wasn't the allegation, in fact, false? Yes or no.
And didn't you direct her attention to further disparaging character assessments that you formed, none of which had to do with whether or not IP checking works but were in fact remarks deriding her personality?
Yes or no will do as answers to these questions, and where your answers differ from mine, I'll be happy to supply my reasons. I understand why you have no desire to debate this with me, but I won't accept a version of events that is not only false but insulting to ivy, our supposed mutual friend. (Applying that term to a person you subject to such treatment is a stretch, but I'll leave it alone.)
So I call your attention to the simplest facts I can and invite you to consider the proposition that it was not her but you who made it personal, and that this is stunningly obvious.
In light of the fact that you brought it up, it's also absurd for you to say this is an instance of ivy making this about herself. You did that, and that is a simple fact.
You say that she was first to mention your private dispute in public. That at least is true. But you know very well why she did. You kept saying that she put you in a moral dillemma by asking you to keep her alleged secret, and you kept hinting that you would have to reveal it. So she publicly said it herself to demonstrate a fact that you refused to acknowledge: she had no secret. Which means that your accusation that she misrepresented herself was false. That is the nut of the matter, isn't it? 1. You accused her. 2. The accusation is false. If I can be any clearer, please let me know.
And you know quite well that if she had not posted what she had done, you could have used that as evidence that she did have a secret. In fact, that's what you did, and you practically demanded that she make a public admission. You and I can both see that right there in the exchange.
In short, you pushed her to post about it and made it clear that it would somehow damn her if she didn't, and now you want to say that this constitutes an unprovoked attack on you. I sincerely hope you are capable of seeing that it's no such thing.
Your version of events is false. I trust, however, that you believe it at the moment. I can also predict with some confidence that you will abandon it at some point and come to see your role in this squabble with much regret, maybe too much. In my experience, you are too hard on yourself, and that is where the whole trouble starts. I'm inviting you to interrupt that cycle before anyone has reason to feel any worse about it for a minute longer. All I'm asking is that you consider the basic facts and acknowledge them. No one simply attacked you out of the blue. That is a paranoid fantasy. You played a major role in this, which was to both start it and escalate it, and you may acknowledge that fact now or acknowledge it later.
I know you don't want to hear this, and trust me, trying to talk sense to someone who doesn't feel like hearing it is not a funtime activity. The truth is, and you know this damn well, is that I'd be well within my rights to just say "fuck you" to anyone who talks to my wife the way you have. And I am asking myself if that's what I should have done. I'm going on the conjecture that I can do better. Prove me wrong, or prove me right.
From boorite :: 08-17-07 05:49pm ( reply :: delete )
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5.
from boorite:
One more thing.
"i had no emotional involvement in the subject whatsoever until she became emotionally involved and personally attacked me in an AIM convo."
This is what I mean when I say that you say inflammatory things and then seem shocked when the other person is inflamed. It may or may not be the case that you had no emotional investment in accusing ivy of misrepresenting herself. I doubt it, but I trust that you believe it, and so I think your emotional investment is obscure to you.
But that's irrelevant to the really astonishing point here. You opened a private exchange with a supposed friend by calling her a liar and now you protest when she reacts emotionally, as if it is personal. Well, it is personal! It doesn't get a whole lot more personal. Having emotions of hurt and anger about it is appropriate, particularly if it seems to her a false accusation about something that barely matters. But you're presenting a case that if you make such accusations with emotional detachment, the other person shouldn't have any feelings about it. That is just not reality. Emotionlessness isn't in the realm of appropriate human responses when your "friend" calls you a liar. The idea that you really might not understand this shakes me a bit, I have to tell you.
From boorite :: 08-17-07 06:09pm ( reply :: delete )
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6.
to boorite:
*sigh*
you'd said this wasn't your fight, but now you're making it yours despite me telling you i have no desire to debate a husband defending his wife.
i haven't read your latest 2 pm's. truth be told, i'm hoping to avoid them, as you'll see. your conclusions in the first pm are misguided because your characterization of me is incorrect, though understandable with what you know about the previous situation with lara. a situation where i was on heavy doses of psychotropic medicines including 120mg of Adderall. (check out that medicine some time. it's a medicine Kathy's nephew just went to the emergency room for recently, it messed with his head so bad he thought he was dying. and he'd only taken the maximum recommended dose, 80mg, 2/3rds of what i was taking.) any similarities you draw from that situation and this one is like drawing conclusions from the behavior of someone fall-down drunk with his behavior when sober, an analogy i'd hope you can sympathize with since that's EXACTLY the embarrassment i feel from my that-wasn't-me actions. it would be more telling to compare my behavior towards ivy with that since i've come back as mandingo, since i'm now not on insane doses of psychostimulants. (120mg was the same dosage i was on when i called you a hack, by the way, if you need further proof of the difference in my behavior.) even a cursory objective assessment of both incidents will quickly show that *i* was the aggressor to lara, something i still feel terrible about all these years later, yet ivy was the aggressor towards me, which is why i'll be over this within the week, despite your previous prediction. my only desire at this point is to avoid contact with her, move on, and hopefully retain your and my friendship, the latter being a proposition rapidly fading with your continuing to debate the issue, when i've said point blank i have NO DESIRE to debate a husband about his wife, especially when that husband is also a friend, because i FIRMLY believe nothing good will come of it.
i mean, seriously, what can come of it? you're a husband doing the honorable thing defending his wife. is there ANYTHING i could say that would convince you NOT to take her side? answer that honestly. the best we could hope for is "we agree to disagree." the worst, and far more likely, is our having a similar falling out, which i'd like to believe isn't a foregone conclusion.
nothing good will come of it.
but i'll leave the decision to you. i haven't read your last two pm's yet. if you want to continue to make this your fight, continue to debate about points i've told you i have no desire to debate with a husband about his wife, i'll respond point by point by point, because you and ivy ARE wrong here. (though you for more honorable, understandable reasons, as i've now said, and meant, and held out as an olive branch multiple times now.) if, however you can find it in yourself to drop it, consider this between ivy and myself(since i'm not a flamer like crabby and won't be continuing this in the forums), and not take it on yourself to fight your wife's battles for her, especially a battle that's already been fought and is now over, i'll HAPPILY give you the last word with your last two PM's.
i hope you choose the latter.
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 07:57pm ( reply :: delete )
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7.
to boorite:
Hey, you wrote and asked me. If you don't like the answer, I expected as much, but you are deluded if you think you're going to make this into "boorite is fighting his wife's battles for her." You asked me, and I answered, and so *this* is between me and you. If you're not going to read what I took the time and care to lay out to you, then you're not my friend, and I should have told you to go fuck yourself from the start. You've proved you're just another internet asshole with a big fucking mouth slagging someone off from behind your computer screen, and I shouldn't waste my time trying to reason with your dumb ass. That's what I should have said to you the minute you started a bunch of shit with my wife. Go be a fucking asshole to someone else. I have no use for any more of your bullshit. Do you have that?
From boorite :: 08-17-07 08:34pm ( reply :: delete )
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8.
to boorite:
"Hey, you wrote and asked me. If you don't like the answer, I expected as much, but you are deluded if you think you're going to make this into "boorite is fighting his wife's battles for her." You asked me, and I answered, and so *this* is between me and you."
what did i ask you exactly? give me an exact quote. i didn't ask you for shit. it was unsolicited. actually, in point of fact, i actively asked you NOT to debate me for the sake of our friendship
here, i'll even help you. here's my exact message in which i supposedly "wrote and asked" you:
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i hope ivy and my falling out doesn't hurt our relationship, though i understand that's easier said than done when someone hurts the one you love, even unintentionally.
it really didn't start out as personal, it just got that way when she got defensive and started flaming me on AIM and in the thread. either way it was retarded of me to even broach the subject on something i admit isn't even that important to me. i was trying to tell a friend she was putting me in a pickle since she was publicly debating something in a way i felt contradicted what she'd told me in private, but something that had every sign of being taken personal and blowing up in my face, and did.
either way, sorry for the pickle you now find yourself in because of the pickle i was trying to find my way out of. if this has to be the end of our intraweb friendship, either because you're mad or because it will make your life easier, remember, we'll always have sodomy
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 06:03am ( reply :: delete )"
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and remember you've said "Since you asked me" about 3 times now. you don't find the question, the logic of everything you just said just crumpled around your ankles
and you should probably stop saying "i anticipated" and "i expected." it's silly and shows your control freak side.
"If you're not going to read what I took the time and care to lay out to you, then you're not my friend, and I should have told you to go fuck yourself from the start."
oh, i'm reading it now. believe it. i'll address every point you made. every. point. if they fall as easily as your last post just did, it won't take much work
"You've proved you're just another internet asshole with a big fucking mouth slagging someone off from behind your computer screen, and I shouldn't waste my time trying to reason with your dumb ass. That's what I should have said to you the minute you started a bunch of shit with my wife. Go be a fucking asshole to someone else. I have no use for any more of your bullshit. Do you have that?"
congratulations, you've now pissed me off. you're doing exactly what ivy did. namely, i was nothing but nice and kind to you and you're now cussing at me and being a dickhole
you talk to me like that again, i hand it back to you. you'll lose
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 09:58pm ( reply :: delete )
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9.
from boorite:
Yeah you were being really nice there. You're a fucking asshole. Now go fuck your mother if you can spare the time from picking fights with girls on the internet.
This appears to be the only kind of message you'll understand or even read. So for the last time. Fuck. You. Got it?
From boorite :: 08-17-07 11:14pm ( reply :: delete )
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what if nigger meant kite
