boorite's starting to troll my comics and flame me in the comic comments (check out my comic Blessed are the peacemakers), so now everything comes here. this post is my response to multiple unsolicited pm's from him.
the next post are all of those pm's from boorite as well as mine back, all in chronological order
the third post are my and ivy's pm's in chronological order. these were already posted in the Announcements thread, but i post them here for completeness and because if i post them there, Red and HC will assrape me with a plunger.
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Since you asked: From my vantage point, you started a personal fight with our friend ivy over something you admit doesn't warrant it."
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
what did i ask you exactly? give me an exact quote. i didn't ask you for shit. it was unsolicited. actually, in point of fact, i actively asked you NOT to debate me for the sake of our friendship
here, i'll even help you. here's my exact message in which i supposedly "wrote and asked" you:
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i hope ivy and my falling out doesn't hurt our relationship, though i understand that's easier said than done when someone hurts the one you love, even unintentionally.
it really didn't start out as personal, it just got that way when she got defensive and started flaming me on AIM and in the thread. either way it was retarded of me to even broach the subject on something i admit isn't even that important to me. i was trying to tell a friend she was putting me in a pickle since she was publicly debating something in a way i felt contradicted what she'd told me in private, but something that had every sign of being taken personal and blowing up in my face, and did.
either way, sorry for the pickle you now find yourself in because of the pickle i was trying to find my way out of. if this has to be the end of our intraweb friendship, either because you're mad or because it will make your life easier, remember, we'll always have sodomy
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 06:03am ( reply :: delete )"
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and remember you've said "Since you asked me" about 3 times now. you don't find the question, the logic of everything you just said just crumpled around your ankles
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Today I read the forums and find that you are accusing her of starting the personal fight with you.
So the question is, who made it personal? Who first took a break from the discussion about whether or not IP checking works in order to fire off a message saying "you this, you that?"
The answer to that question is the answer to who made it personal, and as far as I can tell, it was you. Feel free to correct me if ivy was the first to bring up your conduct.
me bringing up her conduct wasn't making it personal because i wasn't emotionally involved or attacking her in any way. i was telling a friend she was putting me in an awkward position. i actually said in the aim conversation that it was making me feel awkward to which she replied "no, it wasn't making you feel awkward!" which is funny and sad in the same way ivy's funny and sad. most people hear a friend tell them they're making them feel awkward, they try to talk it out since most people know that a friend feeling bad, for whatever reason, is enough reason to try to fix it, since they're a friend. this is intuitive to people who make good friends, and some even understand the dynamic at work there is moral relativism. ivy, however, is such an absolutist, she answers a friend's "i'm feeling awkward" with "no, you're not." lool. funny. and sad.
if you can understand that one little point, you can understand how i can bring up the subject of ivy score boosting without it being personal. all you have to understand is moral relativism. that's it. that's all.
then you'd suddenly understand that it wasn't a coincidence that the first 6 words out of my mouth in all this were "please don't think i'm attacking you." you'd understand why my first words to her in AIM were something like "i'm sorry if you felt attacked by all that" and why when she said "i kind of did" my next reply was something like "i'm sorry. it's really not like that. this isn't personal to me at all." i went on to say "you could boost the score on 1000 of your comics and i wouldn't care and it wouldn't affect my friendship with you. i was just telling a friend she was making me feel awkward."
moral relativism. that's it. if you understood that, you'd understand why i say things in the forums like "there's no right and wrong to like and dislike" and "there's no universal good and bad. everything's contextual to purpose, desire, and personal principle." i said that a month ago in that "What wisdom can you share" thread -- http://www.stripcreator.com/forums/showthread.php?postnum=249206
something else i said in that thread is "most people don't realize the above fact and so you'll often hear otherwise-intelligent people vehemently arguing over their favorite color." which is EXACTLY why i've now repeatedly said i was retarded for even broaching the subject in the first place. i KNEW most people are absolutists. i KNEW therefore it had the potential to blow up in my face. what i didn't know was that ivy isn't even "relative" enough to empathize with a friend who just said they were being made to feel awkward by something she was doing, which is what i was relying on, and her trust in me as a friend when i told her it wasn't an attack, to avoid it blowing up in my face, which it did.
moral relativism. that's it. understand that and you understand how it WAS ivy who made it personal in the AIM convo when she started cussing at me in all caps.
understand that and you understand how you're both acting like monsters toward me.
but you won't. you're nearly as big an absolutist as her. even worse, you're one with a "small man" complex, feeling the need to defend your wife from a perceived attack when none exists. you're compelled to fight her battles for her (poorly), deluding yourself into believing you're justified in doing so by prefacing your comments multiple times with "Since you asked" when it's now been proven beyond a doubt i didn't ask, and your opinion was in no way solicited.
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Furthermore, you're either deliberately falsifying [the fact that it was you who made it personal] in public, or you're unaware of the significance of pre-emptively PMing a friend and calling her a liar, and in your eyes, her response really does seem like an attack out of the clear blue sky.
i wasn't calling her a liar. (not that the word "liar" has any inherent negative connotation to a moral relativist. "there's no universal good and bad. everything's contextual to purpose, desire, and personal principle." that ring a bell?) i was hoping for an explanation, whatever it was, so i could stop being put in a pickle by a friend who was making me feel awkward in a situation where a friend was saying something that contradicted what she'd told me. i was looking for more information. she could have said "yeah, i did that but i feel bad about it now. i'd rather not bring up that fact though" or "i did it but don't do it anymore. i'm embarrassed by the fact so let's not bring it up" and that would have been the end of it. if, however, she'd said "yeah i still score boost with multiple accounts but it's just to counteract all the fucking downvoters" or "yeah i still score boost, but that has nothing to do with my motivation here. i just don't want to be arsed with the one-vote-per-IP thing since that method punishes legitimate users like boorite and i who use the same IP." in that case, i would have started a PRIVATE debate with her (this idea of me wanting to out her is recockulous) saying something like the following: "well, we all hate the downvoters, ivy, but do you think it's fair to misrepresent yourself in a public debate to a group of people who have at least some say in whether this method will be used? especially when a friend is debating in favor of the other side and now knows you're misrepresenting her opinion?"
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quote:
boorite wrote:
...or you're unaware of the significance of pre-emptively PMing a friend and calling her a liar, and in your eyes, her response really does seem like an attack out of the clear blue sky.
Knowing you, I suspect it's the latter.
not out of the clear blue sky as the following already showed:
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
i KNEW most people are absolutists. i KNEW therefore it had the potential to blow up in my face. what i didn't know was that ivy isn't even "relative" enough to empathize with a friend who just said they were being made to feel awkward by something she was doing, which is what i was relying on, along with her trust in me as a friend when i told her it wasn't an attack, to avoid it blowing up in my face, which it did.
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boorite wrote:
You really have convinced yourself that she attacked you without any provocation, and she is just unreasonable.
if she knew i was a moral relativist and wasn't attacking her, both of those would be true. however, here it's more like a faulty assumption. she assumed i was making it personal and was attacking her. (the same mistake you're making, by the way, though you've added a couple more to the mix because of your small man complex and your need to be right, both of which i'll address shortly.) it was a faulty assumption with evidence to the contrary though with my continually repeating "please don't think i'm attacking you" and "i'm sorry you felt attacked. it's really not like that." but her emotions and personal failings made her ignore the evidence that she was making a faulty assumption, as yours now are also. of course, i shouldn't have brought it up in the first place, but once i did, the blame falls squarely on both of your shoulders.
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quote:
boorite wrote:
To me, it looks a lot like earlier episodes with others where you say something inflammatory and then seem shocked when the other is inflamed. There is no reason to be mystified.
as to whether i was shock and mystified
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
i KNEW most people are absolutists. i KNEW therefore it had the potential to blow up in my face. what i didn't know was that ivy isn't even "relative" enough to empathize with a friend who just said they were being made to feel awkward by something she was doing, which is what i was relying on, and her trust in me as a friend when i told her it wasn't an attack, to avoid it blowing up in my face, which it did.
as to it looking "a lot like earlier episodes"
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
your conclusions in the first pm are misguided because your characterization of me is incorrect, though understandable with what you know about the previous situation with lara. a situation where i was on heavy doses of psychotropic medicines including 120mg of Adderall. (check out that medicine some time. it's a medicine Kathy's nephew just went to the emergency room for recently, it messed with his head so bad he thought he was dying. and he'd only taken the maximum recommended dose, 80mg, 2/3rds of what i was taking.) any similarities you draw from that situation and this one is like drawing conclusions from the behavior of someone fall-down drunk with his behavior when sober, an analogy i'd hope you can sympathize with since that's EXACTLY the embarrassment i feel from my that-wasn't-me actions. it would be more telling to compare my behavior towards ivy with that since i've come back as mandingo, since i'm now not on insane doses of psychostimulants.
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Just look at the facts, and you will see that the story you tell yourself of an unprovoked personal attack is simply false. Indeed, you have it precisely backward.
two sentences that apply not to me, but to you in light of me being a moral relativist, a fact proven by quotes in the forum long before this incident was a glimmer in satan's eye
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quote:
boorite wrote:
It's practically the simplest question I can think of, and yet I'm frustrated because I doubt you will see the significance of it.
frustrated is the place i now find myself in because even in light of evidence i'm a moral relativist and WASN'T attacking ivy, there's just no chance you and ivy have it in you to admit this to yourselves, let alone me. what's worse, even if by some miracle you both could, it wouldn't matter at this point
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quote:
boorite wrote:
It's OK to be wrong, or else we're all doomed, but I don't think you're going to see it that way at this moment. I think your need to be right is going to make it absolutely necessary that ivy is the one who started it and made it personal, despite the simple answer to the simple question above.
if this whole situation wasn't so sad, this would be pretty funny coming from you. i'm sure i've had problems with needing to be right, especially when younger. i'd bet most people have. but you have problems with it NOW and CONSTANTLY. for chrissakes, even ivy agrees with this. awhile ago, after you demonstrated that quality in the forums yet again, i was talking to ivy and said something like "boorite has a hard time being disagreed with" and she said "yeah, i've noticed." i told her i was surprised it hadn't been a problem between the both of you yet since she was pretty opinionated herself and she said something to the effect of "he's only done it to other people so for. hopefully it stays that way."
you have no falsifiability, so to speak. that term usually applies to theories, but it applies equally well to a debator like you who *needs* to be right. i discovered this fact when we were debating evolution that time. (you'll have to ask ivy when she discovered it.) since then, i've tried to avoid debating you when i could for the sake of our friendship. which is ironic, because later, when i was off the stimulants, discovering that fact about you made debating you a hundred times easier since you were as transparent as our friendship turned out to be. it's now almost laughable the traits i assigned to you before that. traits you don't possess and probably wouldn't even recognize if you saw them in others. (i was pretty new to the internet in 2001, what can i say.)
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quote:
boorite wrote:
And as before, you'll come to deeply regret your role in this unnecessary fight, and you'll eventually go through some painful self-recrimination.
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
even a cursory objective assessment of both incidents will quickly show that *i* was the aggressor to lara, something i still feel terrible about all these years later, yet ivy was the aggressor towards me, which is why i'll be over this within the week
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Just set the record straight and put the thing to right.
you're reading me doing exactly that. not that you'll hear. your need to be right creates such a non-falsifiability in you that you can and will delude yourself to such a point you can make yourself believe anything, such as the two following completely contradictory statements you made within 7 hours:
quote:
boorite wrote:
The reason I'm telling you this is that we are friends. I don't think you're like crabby/lildeucecoup, who is a sadist and probably a sociopath. I wouldn't give that fucker anything but a hard slap in the jaw for his trouble. With you, I get the sense that the problem is not that you like to hurt people but that you're deeply afraid of being wrong. You are probably in a better position than I am to know if that's true. In any case, we've been through exactly this before, and it will follow the same course unless we do something different.
So here I am doing something different. It's what I think a friend would do, as opposed to what I would tell crabby, which is "go fuck yourself."
7 hours later:
quote:
boorite wrote:
You're a fucking asshole. Now go fuck your mother if you can spare the time from picking fights with girls on the internet.
This appears to be the only kind of message you'll understand or even read. So for the last time. Fuck. You. Got it?
two completely contradictory statements, made within 7 hours because of your small-man-complex need to protect your wife from an imagined attack and your ego need to be right. it's sad because it's projection just as ivy saying i was attacking her was. yours is far worse though. more deeply rooted and much more often it seems. you say crabby talks shit because he can get away with it online whereas he'd get his ass beat in real life which is exactly the case with you, and you hate that about yourself because of the small man complex. then you tell me i have a need to be right when that is the case with you to such an extent your newleywed wife sees and dislikes it in you. whether she sees the small man complex i don't know but with all your sword and knife buying, i'd guess sadly yes.
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quote:
boorite wrote:
If you hope all this doesn't end our friendship, then you have a choice in the matter. Consider and respond the way a friend would.
so i did.
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
*sigh*
you'd said this wasn't your fight, but now you're making it yours despite me telling you i have no desire to debate a husband defending his wife.
i haven't read your latest 2 pm's. truth be told, i'm hoping to avoid them, as you'll see. your conclusions in the first pm are misguided because your characterization of me is incorrect, though understandable with what you know about the previous situation with lara. a situation where i was on heavy doses of psychotropic medicines including 120mg of Adderall. (check out that medicine some time. it's a medicine Kathy's nephew just went to the emergency room for recently, it messed with his head so bad he thought he was dying. and he'd only taken the maximum recommended dose, 80mg, 2/3rds of what i was taking.) any similarities you draw from that situation and this one is like drawing conclusions from the behavior of someone fall-down drunk with his behavior when sober, an analogy i'd hope you can sympathize with since that's EXACTLY the embarrassment i feel from my that-wasn't-me actions. it would be more telling to compare my behavior towards ivy with that since i've come back as mandingo, since i'm now not on insane doses of psychostimulants. (120mg was the same dosage i was on when i called you a hack, by the way, if you need further proof of the difference in my behavior.) even a cursory objective assessment of both incidents will quickly show that *i* was the aggressor to lara, something i still feel terrible about all these years later, yet ivy was the aggressor towards me, which is why i'll be over this within the week, despite your previous prediction. my only desire at this point is to avoid contact with her, move on, and hopefully retain your and my friendship, the latter being a proposition rapidly fading with your continuing to debate the issue, when i've said point blank i have NO DESIRE to debate a husband about his wife, especially when that husband is also a friend, because i FIRMLY believe nothing good will come of it.
i mean, seriously, what can come of it? you're a husband doing the honorable thing defending his wife. is there ANYTHING i could say that would convince you NOT to take her side? answer that honestly. the best we could hope for is "we agree to disagree." the worst, and far more likely, is our having a similar falling out, which i'd like to believe isn't a foregone conclusion.
nothing good will come of it.
but i'll leave the decision to you. i haven't read your last two pm's yet. if you want to continue to make this your fight, continue to debate about points i've told you i have no desire to debate with a husband about his wife, i'll respond point by point by point, because you and ivy ARE wrong here. (though you for more honorable, understandable reasons, as i've now said, and meant, and held out as an olive branch multiple times now.) if, however you can find it in yourself to drop it, consider this between ivy and myself(since i'm not a flamer like crabby and won't be continuing this in the forums), and not take it on yourself to fight your wife's battles for her, especially a battle that's already been fought and is now over, i'll HAPPILY give you the last word with your last two PM's.
i hope you choose the latter.
From mandingo :: 08-17-07 07:57pm ( reply :: delete )
and this was your response to me following your request to "Consider and respond the way a friend would."
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quote:
boorite wrote:
Hey, you wrote and asked me. If you don't like the answer, I expected as much, but you are deluded if you think you're going to make this into "boorite is fighting his wife's battles for her." You asked me, and I answered, and so *this* is between me and you. If you're not going to read what I took the time and care to lay out to you, then you're not my friend, and I should have told you to go fuck yourself from the start. You've proved you're just another internet asshole with a big fucking mouth slagging someone off from behind your computer screen, and I shouldn't waste my time trying to reason with your dumb ass. That's what I should have said to you the minute you started a bunch of shit with my wife. Go be a fucking asshole to someone else. I have no use for any more of your bullshit. Do you have that?
From boorite :: 08-17-07 08:34pm ( reply :: delete )
guess i shouldn't have responded the way i'd want a friend to respond to me
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boorite wrote:
I also want to tell you that you're deeply mistaken in your evaluation of ivy's character, and at some point, probably soon, you'll realize what a mistake it was to say those things to her and then repeat them with emphasis in public.
it seems you know me as little as you know yourself.
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quote:
mandingo wrote:
ivy was the aggressor towards me, which is why i'll be over this within the week
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boorite wrote:
Your denouncing her can't fail to be a problem between you and me, and I think you know that.
the moral relativism shows it's not denouncing
as to whether i knew it can't fail to be a problem between us, i knew it would be incredibly difficult, which is why i sent you a courtesy pm where the first thing i said was "i hope ivy and my falling out doesn't hurt our relationship, though i understand that's easier said than done when someone hurts the one you love, even unintentionally" and where i apologized "for the pickle you now find yourself in because of the pickle i was trying to find my way out of"
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quote:
boorite wrote:
So if you're not happy with it, simply clear it up.
i just did
says: