MaKK, your snipes I don't mind, when they are at least accompanied by an argument. Andy, you agreed the threat is a joke, which was aimed at MaKK. I AM talking to two of you here, at least. Dougan, my question is, to you, "Why Iraq?" Why not one of the African Depots? Why have we decided that this endeavor was worth embarking upon? You mistake me for someone else, Dougan. I would like the House of Saud to go bye-bye, but I don't think at all that aggression is the way to do it. I don't like oppression at ALL. I would just like to know what in the name of all that is holy made this country think that it has to be the World Police, and the CRUSADER of justice throughout the world?

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

Oil! How many times?

Well, we're all ears...

No, answer me this:

Why was it more important to rout out the dictator in IRAQ than other dictators?

My problem is not just with war, it is mostly with the complete lack of truth in politics.

P.S. - I already, previously in this discussion, suggested going to the United Nations and asking for their help in this matter, instead of bulldogging them into backing us, and bullDOZING forward when they refused.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

It wasn't more important. There are some regimes, like Uzbekistan, which seem just as bad. So?

If you went to the UN and said you wanted to end the Saudi kingdom because it's bad, you'd just get laughed at.

The answer is because we supplied Iraq's weapons, technology and power back in the seventies. It was time to take it back.

We supported Saddam and he turned on us, it wasn't "time to take back the weapons". I really doubt we would arm a nation to the point that they become a military threat we cannot defeat. In the first Persian Gulf War we accessed their air defense network through backdoor programs we installed. This doesn't make Iraq sound like an American-made military threat to me. Do you remember how long the first Persian Gulf War lasted? Oh wait, of course you don't, you were still breast feeding.

Any weapon Iraq had that was too much of a threat would have been banned, and we could have used that to justify going in. Why didn't we do that Nate? Is it because you are talking out of your ass?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I was referring to speaking to the United Nations about Iraq. Colin Powell went to the U.N. with 'evidence' of a need to ivade Iraq, and they essentially laughed at him. Your attitude is precisely the attitude that is fucking this world up. No hope, no idealism, no willingness to try something else. "Oh, we shouldn't try WORKING WITH the U.N.! We should just try to get them to agree with what we are going to do anyway!" Fuck all that. You are now talking hypothetical. "You'd just get laughed at." How the fuck could you know that? Did we try? So the fuck what if we got laughed at? Aren't we the most powerful country in the world? Can't we take it? Bunch of fucking frat boys.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

Em. I didn't mean that getting rejected would hurt America's feelings, just that it would likely be a waste of time trying to press a case like that at the UN. As we saw with Iraq, there has to be some major legal breach or fresh humanitarian crisis for the UN to get involved in the removal of a government. The chronic oppression of a people isn't enough. The UN was not prepared to oust Saddam. Why would they agree to topple the Saudi monarchy?

As for idealism, I'll refrain from taking counsel from someone who thinks that the tyrannized should be left to sort themselves out.

As I said, I do not believe the tyrannized should be left to sort themselves out. Let me clue you in on something. I believe the tyrannized should be helped, but NOT MILITARILY. You are still coming at this from the thought that military action is the way to solve conflicts like that. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is aggression so ingrained into your way of thinking that if someone gets hurt, you have to make sure the person who performed the hurt has to hurt as well? Fucking-a, you people suck. All violence and retribution ever lead to is more violence. Don't you people remember high school? When someone got fucked up, they get their boys to fuck that kid up. Then that kid gets his boys and there is a fucking war. Eventually, it'll come down to two factions fighting or one faction hunting down members of the other one by one. Unfortunately, this does not change in adulthood. The methods do, but the mentality doesn't. Hey, Iraqis are being tyrannized, let's go fuck some shit up! MILITARILY we shouldn't be helping these people. I don't give a FUCK if the U.N. was ready to do anything militarily. They shouldn't be. We should be having a summit on ways to oust him or FUCKING EDUCATE HIM. Something, goddammit. There is ALWAYS an alternative to killing somebody. Instead of spending billions on military actions, why, first off, don't we fix out problems here? You never answered that. We have got poor, homeless, uneducated, illiterate, and STILL OPPRESSED people here, in America. It is laughable that you can sit there with a straight face and accuse me of wanting to leave the oppressed to figure it out for themselves. Well, I am accusing you of wanting to let the oppressed and fucked-up people HERE figure it out for themselves. You could care less about the one black kid in an all-white school. You could care less about the one white kid in the all-black school. Could you care about the kids dying in a long island town of rare forms of cancer? DO you care about the fact that these kids all happen to live with a stone's throw from MAJOR power towers? You obviously do not give half a shit about the mentally ill people who are on death row, in jail, or simply on the street. In New York City alone, some hundreds upon thousands of mentally ill patients were released into society following the closure of several shelters and institutions. Why aren't we investing billions into that? Hmm? Why was Iraq so important when WITHING OUR FUCKING borders there was shit to address, and things that have already been there for DECADES. You, Dougan, and especially MaKK, have no solid reasoning behind your arguments. Before you even dare give a reason why we should stick our fat, ever-expanding noses into Iraq with all the shit going on in this country.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

You base your reasonings for not wanting to oust Saddam on playground experiences then say my arguments have no grounding?

Some problems do have to be solved with force. That's why police have guns and pencils have erasers.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

And why is that? I could have sworn I said violence. Force and violence aren't exactly the same thing. And sometimes the subtle threat of violence is more powerful and effective than actual violence. And that is from an authoritarian standpoint. From my standpoint, the whole justice system is fucked. There would be so much less crime if it wasn't so uncool to be educated, and it wasn't so easy to sell drugs, gangbang, and other foul shit. Racial profiling was only ONE of the fucked-up things cops do. Guns=power, plain and simple. We all know, as I said before, of at least ONE maniacal middle-manager we have worked for that has let a small amount of power like that go straight to their heads. You mean to tell me the power of life and death in someone's hand might not make them just a little cocky? COPS HAVE GUNS. No one should, and trying to take something away from people by force has never, ever stuck.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

and I wasn't breast fed.

How, if not by using violence against him?

Educate him. Good plan. Also, you might want to flesh out the details of your "something, goddammit" programme.

A pretty baseless accusation. You, on the other hand, said it was the job of Iraqis to get out of their own predicament.

Huh? How you figure?

I wasn't aware it was an either-or situation. But that must be the idealist in me.

Before that what?

It's good you're so careful to avoid sweeping statements. Let's do the most obvious example, then. I'm not sure exactly how you define "stuck" - but in 1945 something bad was taken away by force, and it hasn't come back since.

Europe may have been a good example 50 years ago, what with the World War, but now it seems pretty peacefull to me despite centuries of hostilities.

And Americia bears no ill grief towards Britian...

kinda like Japan doesn't really hate us anymore either.

In fact, it seems like only the backwards nations that you're all for have this problem.

Backwards nations? That I'm all for? Very compassionate of you. And you are a child of God, Nate? You aren't even remotely intelligent enough to enter this discussion. Get your pacifier and get mommy to tuck you in. G'night!

None of you can look at the BIG PICTURE. Or perhaps look at history as a whole. 1945? What is it that was taken by force that didn't come back, hmm, Dougan? A regime? Oppression? Tell me, because I am DYING to hear this one.

It's sad, really. I am very sad that you can't look at history as a whole and see that the world as a whole has never been at peace. You just think all of history and the whole world being referenced is a sweeping statement.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

These days, its too easy to get a rise out of the n00bs... :p

That's a nice book cover nate. Unfortunately it doesn't make me recall any official making the case for invading Iraq based on its conventional military capabilities. Also recall the ease with which we defeated Iraq's traditional military force this year. Exactly what weapons did we take back?

This very statement should make you realize that war will happen despite our action or inaction, and that we might as well use it to our collective benefits.

MikeyG is either a young ignorant person or a drunk adult just trying to rile people up, he doesn't seem to be making logical and well-informed arguments.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Er, a regime.

That's because you havn't read it, or any other material about the middle eastern situation as far as i can tell. Your arguments(both of you) are based on opinion and you "elevated reasoning", not to mention the propoganda you both swallow from your news sources, be it newsmax or CNN. You're both like chaff in the wind - i see no serious reason to participate in this argument, therefore i'll just enjoy myself mocking you and pissing you off.

*waits for the "you're not pissing me off" post*

Give me a quote from the book then that backs up the point that the United States' official policy for going into Iraq this year was to "take back the weapons we gave them," along with the footnotes that back it up.

I'm sorry, no, posting a book cover doesn't beat my elevated reasoning. Try again next time.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Of course, elevation is relative.

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I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

Can't we all just get "elevated", and watch cartoons?

Duuuude.. I can see my haaaand... Whoaaah... I'm so fucking "elevated" right now dude...

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

But the word was facetious. the argument here is geting as ridiculous as garbege men talking about solving world hunger or a rock star attending a trade summit.

Duuuuuuude, you just blew my mind!! Garbage men talking about world...

Duuude, Nachos.

DUUUUUDE!! I CAN SEE MY HAND!!! DUUUDE!! I'M TRIPPIN' OUT!!

I'm hungry.

Puff puff pass dude..

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm munchies