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fuzzyman
Alpha Geek

Member Rated:

quote:

I think that list you posted is somewhat misleading, fuzzyman. The administration used a shotgun approach to justify the war in the beginning, and only because the WMD claim was so spectatularly debunked does it seem like the only justification the put forward. The danger of that happening is why I said and still say the administration should have not pushed that claim so much, but I still supported and support the action. This isn't a political party thing, I still would have supported Clinton in an actual engagement of Saddam (and I'm sure he would have brought WMDs into the argument also).

I don't think it's misleading. The WMDs, the supposed Al Quaeda connection, and the "imminent threat" were the justification for the big rush to invade unilaterally.

Take away those reasons and what you have is a bad, bad, man... but not a threat to our security. Is getting rid of him good? Sure, but if you have to prioritize where to put your resources, I'd rather have seen us spend $200 billion on infiltrating and neutralizing terrorist groups.

I still stick to the notion that the timing of this thing was to make support of the invasion the big topic of the 2002 midterm election, taking voters eyes off the economy and putting Dems on the defensive. Sad to say, it worked like a charm.

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

3-28-04 2:38pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

I say it's misleading in that it offers a linear progression of the administration's WMD stance, as if it were the only cause to war. You yourself point out there are other issues (such as [Saddam] is a bad bad man).

On the matter of an Al-Qaeda connection, the administration doesn't need to come clean on that, because they in fact CORRECTED a massive public opinion oddity that there was in fact a direct Al-Qaeda-Iraq link. Please at least get your facts straight.

I still say if a government having WMDs would be extremely dangerous, and they are capable and have the will to make them, the situation needs to be corrected. France had WMDs and no one is clamouring to uninstall Chirac, likewise with Putin, and etc. I think getting Saddam out was the right thing, period, and I think it was a good -if poorly justified- move after 9-11. And you know what? If the administration came out and said they flat-out lied on purpose to get us into the war, I would respect that, because I believe the war was so very neccessary.

In regards to the economy the energy sector is going to drop gasoline prices just before the election, providing an auxillary boost to the economy via increased spending power, in addition to the direct effect of consumers simply paying less at the pumps. So I doubt your conspiracy theory about the economy when there's a much better conspiracy already in play ;) ;) ;)

There's also a very direct link between advances agaisnt Al Qaeda and the stock market so again I won't be surprised by some early-autumn news there. :) :) :)

In all seriousness though much of the Dem's problems are their own. They need to get real and hard on some issues, no matter what they are. Simply being "sort of against being mislead into war" isn't good enough. The issue is complex, and people across the board (I'm a good example of this) aren't neccessarily against the war even if we don't like how we got into it. Kerry for example could take a strong stand on principle, saying he would make one of the focuses of his adminstration to gear up the U.N. into being a body capable of handling the threat of terrorism, and working to get better functionality when military force is needed, rather than having the U.N. body raped and left in a ditch. This wouldn't neccessarily put him against the war, but this would place him in favor of legitimacy, something I think this war points out as a sore issue. This is just an example, there are a slew of issues like this were Kerry is just all over the map ("I voted for the legislation before I voted against it", "I'm for gay marriage on Tuesdays but I'm against it in May", blah blah).

In any event I think this is going to be an itneresting election, and I'm waiting for some surprises. I'm hoping for a surprise VP nom from Kerry to liven things up pretty soon.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-28-04 3:35pm (new)
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fuzzyman
Alpha Geek

Member Rated:


Yes, well, this is why I think Dean should have been the nominee. Agree with him or not, you knew where the heck he stood and why he stood there. The only thing "electable" about Kerry is his hair.

That said, he's gotta be better than the devil I know.

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

3-28-04 4:25pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

I'm not arguing that you, fuzzyman, won't vote for him, but Kerry relying on that mindset isn't going to secure him the election; an incumbent president has an inherent advantage, especially against a senator.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-28-04 6:17pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:


True. But we can hope that being a clueless Bush during a wretched economy will have the same result as last time.

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

3-28-04 8:21pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

You're doing a good job both illustrating and ignoring my point. You don't say "yeah hopefully Kerry will get substantive on some real issues". Your response is completely passive (and almost self-destructive). "Hopefully the economy will completely tank and hurt a bunch of Americans!"

Have fun hoping for that! May all your wishes be revisted on your tenfold.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-28-04 10:41pm (new)
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fuzzyman
Alpha Geek

Member Rated:

quote:
You're doing a good job both illustrating and ignoring my point. You don't say "yeah hopefully Kerry will get substantive on some real issues". Your response is completely passive (and almost self-destructive). "Hopefully the economy will completely tank and hurt a bunch of Americans!"

Have fun hoping for that! May all your wishes be revisted on your tenfold.


Oh, come on Maak, you're reading into Spankling's answer. He's not hoping conditions will be bad -- he's saying that they ARE and hopes that will lead to Bush 2.0's ouster, just like last time.

But you are correct in that we need a better candidate. The good thing is that Kerry is supposed to be a tough campaigner, and has a history of pulling through when the odds are against him.

My ideal candidate would be one with Dean's message and plan, and Clinton (or even Edwards') communication skills. I worked my ass off to make Dean the nominee, but by the time the primaries got to my state it was over.

Dean did inspire me to run for local office when the opporunity arises. I'm getting involved with my local Democratic Town Committee. Enough bitching, if I want a better candidate, maybe I'll have to be it. Heh, maybe someday I'll run for President and someone can use my multitude of Tobor strips against me.

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

3-29-04 2:57am (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Isn't it strange how all these high White House ex-officials are just crazy and stupid? Paul O'Neill and Richard Clarke say practically the same thing (that the Pres was obsessed with invading Iraq, an observation that should be obvious), and the Administration responds: They just don't know what they're talking about! They're just stabbing their President in the back to sell books! They're stupid, treacherous, traitorous, perhaps even crazy! Wow! How did such people ever become top Bush advisers in the first place?

So the sitting President goes into the election season with his staff talking "damage control." As his father might have said, "that's bad. Baaad!" Still, we must remember, as I'm sure Team Bush does, that half the people are of below-average intelligence, and a lot of them vote.

---
What others say about boorite!

3-29-04 6:05am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Ah, but this will cheer some of you up: Yesterday, in a Safeway parking lot just outside Washington, DC, I saw a bumper sticker reading "exercise daily-- walk with the Lord." And on the same car, a Kerry sticker. So maybe Bush doesn't have such a lock on the Banger vote.

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What others say about boorite!

3-29-04 6:16am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

Yeah, just NOW everyone and their mother are seeing how evil Bush is. Why does it take people so goddamn long to open their eyes?

Anyway, in reference to Howard Dean, I have to say that despite his seeming instability, he was definitely much more of a real person than Kerry. He brought humanity to the table, whereas Kerry brings the essence of an automaton.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

3-29-04 7:46am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

I'm not sure how defending your administration against slander in an election year is stupid, boorite.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-29-04 12:20pm (new)
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fuzzyman
Alpha Geek

Member Rated:

Slander? Them's fightin' words!

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

3-29-04 3:13pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Them's fightin' words!

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-29-04 3:38pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

But it's the truth. How can it be slander?

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

3-29-04 8:39pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:


Oops! There I go not saying every possible thing under the sun in every single post I type. Silly me.

Ah-hem...

Kerry is quite substantive on many real issues unlike Bush who only goes around doing character assasinations on good Amnericans like Kerry and Clarke.

Happy now?

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

3-29-04 8:42pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Yup you must be right, it has to be 100% without bias or motive. Let me just scoop out all of my brains so I can agree with you.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-29-04 8:42pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

Well, its not like you use them...

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

3-29-04 8:43pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

So you agree they must be scooped out for me to agree with you.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-29-04 9:55pm (new)
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fuzzyman
Alpha Geek

Member Rated:

No, but they'd be the prime ingredient in a tasty frozen treat.

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

3-30-04 2:42am (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

quote:
Yeah, just NOW everyone and their mother are seeing how evil Bush is. Why does it take people so goddamn long to open their eyes?

Anyway, in reference to Howard Dean, I have to say that despite his seeming instability, he was definitely much more of a real person than Kerry. He brought humanity to the table, whereas Kerry brings the essence of an automaton.


Kerry scares the shit out of me. I don't want Lurch running the country any more than I do a diseased monkey in a flightsuit.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

3-30-04 4:40am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

I think you misunderstood me. The Bush Administration is essentially calling its high ex-officials stupid because they have presumed to criticize the Administration's priorities. And so I think it's funny how guys like O'Neill and Clarke, who seemed perfectly fit for service to Bush before, are suddenly dumb, traitorous wackos. I mean that's the only explanation, right? It couldn't be that their criticisms have any merit.

---
What others say about boorite!

3-30-04 5:48am (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

...You make it sound as if the two are contradictory, rather than necessary and sufficient conditions for one another.

---
ken.kaufman@gmail.com

3-30-04 6:55am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

3-30-04 8:04am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

It seems to be the exact opposite. Now Clarke and O'Neill have gained a measure of sanity. They USED to be dumb, traitorous wackos.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

3-30-04 8:52am (new)
quote : comics : pm : info


MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Maybe that's why they reassigned him to cyber defense where he couldn't screw up too much. As far as I know though Bush (or any of his staff) hasn't called Clarke stupid. If he had it in for the administration so much it makes you wonder if he should have had the job he did, I agree with you there.

Also I'm rather disturbed that fuzzyman seems to be sizing up my brains for consumption. Has anyone else noticed any odd behavior on his part?

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

3-30-04 10:14am (new)
quote : comics : pm : info

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