If what that entire admin did is nothing, then how can what Kerry did be a controversy?

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

Sorry, I thought you were equating Kerry pretending to throw his medals away, lying about it, then apologizing for it with Bush missing a physical. Now you're comparing it with going to war with Iraq.

Well, I don't think it's "nothing" as you put it, but I do think his attitude of detracting from the ability of the United States to impose its military strength could draw some parellels to current-day Iraq. But unlike during Vietnam, we now have a very memorable demonstration of what happens when the United States is perceived as militarily neutered.

Baby killers!

Make love not war!

Throw your medals over the fence! Everyone is doing it!

Take a look at Al Jazera and see who you're throwing your lot in with, in terms of people calling for us to get out of Iraq.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

That's an inane argument and you know it.

That's like saying, "Stabbing yourself with a knife repeatedly is stupid. Hey! Baby killers also think stabbing yourself with a knife is stupid! Therefore, we must sympathize with the baby killers, agree with their goals, and be cut from the same cloth."

Get with the program, Makk. Doing a stupid thing is still doing a stupid thing, and it doesn't stop being stupid if the baby killers agree that it's stupid.

Invading Iraq had nothing to do with fighting terrorism. I'm all for fighting terrorism, but Iraq has been a big, stupid, distraction.

Would it have been nice to have someone other than Saddam in power in Iraq? Sure! But was it critical to defending ourselves against terrorism? Not in the least.

The ONLY benefit I see from this was is that it acts as a honeypot. Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq before, but the situation has attracted them like flies, no doubt distracting them from more attacks on the U.S. homeland. Let's screw up the American's war!

In the long run, however, it still hurts us. It confirms the Islamic world's worst fears about us, and will be used a justification for future attacks.

Way to fight terrorism, George.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

The US military budget exceeds that of the next 20 countries combined. Essentially, it exceeds that of the rest of the world. Somehow I doubt that al Qaeda is motivated by our military weakness. Quite the opposite. If military weakness pissed them off, they'd attack France first.

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What others say about boorite!

I don't see anyone arguing that Kerry isn't a weasel, MaKK. Which, once again, brings me to ask why it is so important for you to bash him. We are all going on the belief that Kerry sucks, but Bush sucks a whole fucking lot more. Well, at least I am, anyway. I can't speak for anyone else.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

It's not our tactical weaknesses (we could have leveled North Vietnam if we wanted to) it's our political will.

And obviously fuzzyman if you've been keeping track, I disagree with the thought that Iraq is not part of fighting terrorism, but I don't think we're going to cover any new ground bringing it up again.

I don't understand your point about "baby killers" fuzzyman, unless it's addressing my point about Iraq-war detractors keeping troop casualty tallies like every death is a victory for them; Iraq insurgents bombing U.N., aid workers and peacekeepers; and radical Islamic fundamentalists all having the same agenda of a weakened America. I think the agendas are all the same, I don't know how you could possibly justify pulling out of Iraq right now without understanding what the result would be.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

quote:

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And obviously fuzzyman if you've been keeping track, I disagree with the thought that Iraq is not part of fighting terrorism, but I don't think we're going to cover any new ground bringing it up again.

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Yes, we disagree. But maybe if I repeat myself enough times I'll get through to you.

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I don't understand your point about "baby killers" fuzzyman, unless it's addressing my point about Iraq-war detractors keeping troop casualty tallies like every death is a victory for them; Iraq insurgents bombing U.N., aid workers and peacekeepers; and radical Islamic fundamentalists all having the same agenda of a weakened America. I think the agendas are all the same, I don't know how you could possibly justify pulling out of Iraq right now without understanding what the result would be.

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I don't support just suddenly pulling out. I do support transitioning the occupation into a UN-led international effort as quickly as possible, as it should have been in the first place.

The death toll makes me sad. Another life lost for no purpose. I don't take glee in each death -- I simply add it to the tally of crimes of George W. Bush. I blame him personally for each and every unnecessary death in this unnecessary war. Every casualty is justification for impeachment. To throw away American lives for personal political gain is unforgivable.

I do not blame GWB for any of the deaths in the completely justifiable war in Afghanistan. I am not strictly anti-war. If a war is in our interests, then so be it. The war in Iraq was not in our interests. Now we're stuck with it, and the consequences.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

In case you don't remember, the U.N. was there until they were attacked, and will not return until we make the area safe to do business.

That's still the same attitude. Instead of taking glee because it's another American dead, it's glee because you consider each death a victory against Bush.

Yes, I'm sure the guys actually killing the soldiers, stopping aid workers, and disrupting life in Iraq aren't responsible for their actions at all.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

fuzzy, you'll just get drawn into the nonsensical, paradoxical, hypocritical, megalomaniacal vortex that is MaKK.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

If you think wondering if ANY of the blame for the situation in Iraq should be placed on, you know, the actual insurgents is non-sensical then you have issues.

Also did you not know the U.N. was in Iraq? Until they were bombed? And now they won't return until it is safe? And that this has relevance to fuzzyman's thoughts on the U.N. taking over in Iraq?

If you're having trouble following that maybe you need to step up the doses of lithium.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I think reference was being made to the wider issue of actually being in Iraq in the first place.

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Also did you not know the U.N. was in Iraq? Until they were bombed? And now they won't return until it is safe? And that this has relevance to fuzzyman's thoughts on the U.N. taking over in Iraq?

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Yes. You would need to be a card carrying idiot not to realise pulling out of Iraq now would be a complete mistake. But the U.N. has no mandate to be in Iraq - the pre-planned invasion took care of that.

I'd love to be Kofi Annan and refuse to commit U.N. troops to help rebuild Iraq:
"Sorry, but it's the Coalitions responsibility, since you decided to invade Iraq"

It is entirely the responsibility of the coalition to rebuild Iraq. And we all know what that means. Why do you think Russia and France were so opposed to the war? I think that point's been raised earlier.

Bush has got us into this mess, and for that he should be turfed out a hundred times. But it would be counterproductive to just drop everything and leave immediately. Somehow I think the media are forgetting that the "June 30th deadline" won't signal an end to "occupation" for a good 10-24 months. There is a lot of work to be done, and while rightfully the U.N's job, like it or not, it is the job of the coalition to sorting this completely avoidable idiocy out.

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If you're having trouble following that maybe you need to step up the doses of lithium.

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Good old mAAk logic. "You seem to be suffering from sunstroke. Go lie on the beach naked at noon and drink this crate of beer"

And as a quick aside, iraq is not "another Vietnam". It's an "Iraq"

Like "Watergate" or "Bay of Pigs", this situation is going to become a unique metaphor. This time, for a war fought on unfounded principles that accomplished nothing except lining the pockets of business at the expense of the credibility of the Republican Party and a lot of other countries.

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Please replace the handset, and try again.

Whether or not you agree with it, the possibility that Iraq under Saddam might have become a threat to the United States isn't "non-sensical".

Yeah, they were so opposed to the war because they were getting fat off illegal oil dealings with Saddam. You're right, that has been covered before.

More and more I am noticing a very loose interpretation of the word "logic" in discussions on here.

That would be advice, not logic.

Yeah you're right. Oh wait except for getting Saddam out, and then securing the country from terrorist forces. Aside from that, woah, what's going on? Are soldiers just working on their tans there? I bet they just did all this so they could build a McDonalds or something.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Yes, I'm sure the guys actually killing the soldiers, stopping aid workers, and disrupting life in Iraq aren't responsible for their actions at all.

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Of course they are responsible for their actions. I didn't say they weren't. But I also hold Bush ultimately responsible for putting our people in harms way when it was entirely unnecessary.

I do not cackle happily when I hear the death toll mount, saying, "Oh good, more dead, means people will be pissed off and vote for Kerry." That's what you're implying, isn't it?

That's just sick, Makk.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

Well I'm glad we agree.

Are those drawings supposed to be elephants or what? I hear the level of thought expressed in political cartoons doesn't rise to the intellectual level of a high school freshman, and this one doesn't disappoint that rule.

Kerry both claiming that his record is a source of pride and that his service caused him disgust is obviously duplicitous, and remains so whether or not you can understand the argument.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

And Bush being a cowardly, service ducking chicken hawk? Duplicitous?

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

Hardly. Anyone serving in Iraq can be proud that they have done their work well, while at the same time being disgusted that they were called upon under false pretenses to do work that didn't need to be done.

Not everything is as simple as you try to make it, Makk.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

quote:

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Anyone serving in Iraq can be proud that they have done their work well, while at the same time being disgusted that they were called upon under false pretenses to do work that didn't need to be done.

Not everything is as simple as you try to make it, Makk.

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Well put.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

It would only be duplicitous if Bush both avoided the draft, and then instituted the draft.

So the pretenses for going into Vietnam were false? I thought the big hub-bub was our conduct in Vietnam. I think we behave ourselve beyond compare in military engagements in Iraq. I think the "pretense" was to remove Saddam, and I doubt anyone is going to come back moaning and throwing away their medals because they didn't find WMDs in Iraq, therefore making Saddam an innocent man, wrongly ousted.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

MaKK, doesn't it ever upset you that you make absolutely no sense? I was going to ask how you can walk around being so 'misunderstood' all the time, but then I realized there is an entire political party that understands you perfectly. Hell, sometimes there's two of them.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

Fuzzy, get used to writing "I didn't say" such and such if you're going to argue with makk. You can make it a macro. A Makkro.

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What others say about boorite!

Saying "every death is cause for impeachment" demonstrates a political bias, using soldiers' deaths to illustrate your bias. Every death could be "a reason to pull out" (I don't think it is and you've said we need to stay). Saying each death is a reason never to have gone is ridiculous to me, that's why I say you might as well be "cackling happily" everytime a soldier dies. I don't get your point otherwise. Maybe if the president swore under oath that there would be no casualties in the war, then each death would be cause for impeachment.

I'm also confused how you say we shouldn't pull out (because the situation is unstable) yet each death is an "impeachment" against Bush. Each death illustrates that democracy probably would collapse if we left Iraq now, and that we need to stay the course. Yet it also demonstrates that we need to "impeach Bush"? Even Kerry says he won't pull us out of Iraq.

I think you were included in the people who gave Bush a 90% approval rating and now you're over-compensating for the shame you feel now.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

So the pretenses for going into Vietnam were false? I thought the big hub-bub was our conduct in Vietnam. I think we behave ourselve beyond compare in military engagements in Iraq. I think the "pretense" was to remove Saddam, and I doubt anyone is going to come back moaning and throwing away their medals because they didn't find WMDs in Iraq, therefore making Saddam an innocent man, wrongly ousted.

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I wasn't saying anything specifically about Vietnam. I was giving you an example of how one could be proud of their service in a war, and yet disgusted by that war. It was a concept you didn't seem to comprehend, so I thought I'd point out a very simple example for you.

The "pretense" was to remove Saddam because he was a danger to us. Except, of course, he wasn't.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

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I wasn't saying [some crazy made-up shit]. I was giving you an example of [something perfectly sensible]. It was a concept you didn't seem to comprehend, so I thought I'd point out a very simple example for you.

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Thus are hundreds of pages of correspondence with makk boiled down to a few sentences.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

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What others say about boorite!

But you specifically compared Kerry's disgust with America's military to the war in Iraq. Switching context after I make a valid point doesn't change the point.

Lack of prove isn't in itself proof. And I continue to submit, as I have said before, that lack of WMDs isn't the absense of the ability to do harm. I don't like to be a wag and continually bring up 9-11, but as far as I know flight classes, buying plane tickets, carrying box cutters, and funding for room and board in the U.S. all would not qualify as WMDs.

Violent anti-American rhetoric, having organized bodies working for you, having easy access to organized terror groups, having invaded a neighboring country, having just witnesses how easily America is vulnerable to an assymetric attack, being so dangerous to neighboring countries that you are secitoned off by no-fly zones, and being so untrustworthly that your oil can only be traded for food would all seem to point to the fact that we KNOW Saddam was a threat. It doesn't show that we have to PROVE he was a threat.

Again, I don't want to rehash the same crap again, you can respond to this if you want to stay on topic. I'm sure your counter argument is something like "well the threat he posed wasn't worth going to war as we did." I have yet to see that completely justified. The issue comes down to some people thinking Saddam was dangerous enough to invade, and some people not thinking so. You Think Different. Congratulations, go pay 30% more for an Apple computer, and complete your self-adoration.

You're going to say I am wrong but you can't say:

You can say you THINK he wasn't a threat, you can say you THINK he wouldn't have been able to attack us, but you don't know. You only know that we now know our evidence about him having WMDs was soft. That's all you know. That doesn't make Saddam unable to harm us and you know it.

We didn't isolate Saddam because we thought he had WMDs. We isolated him because he invaded Kuwait. We FOUND OUT he was making WMDs after the Persian Gulf War. WMDs is just an unpleasant icing on the cake.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008