~~~This will take you a long time to get through so make sure you have the time. Please don’t comment unless you’ve read the whole thing. Otherwise how else can you be responding to all I’ve said?

 

This all started when I started asking different people,

“Would you rather go to hell or die and that's it... No memory... no soul... no nothing... you don't exist and more.”

Theists either avoided a direct answer opting rather to tell me about heaven and hell and that there is no “Nothing” or saying that hell is worse than nothing, which I can’t understand.

Atheists pretty much all told me that you die and that’s it and to look forward to not having to deal with the earths woes. While that kind avoided that answer I was looking for is made me ask,

“While I don't know how else I would answer this question if I kind want a new answer. I just can't wrap my feeble mind around looking forward to not knowing anything and ceasing to be. How can you look forward to something that you won't enjoy or even know happened because your memory is no more and you're just gone. That's not peace from all the woe is it? I think the major issue I'm having here it that the human mind cannot fathom complete nothingness, as in, not even blackness, because you would recognize at least that, but purely nothing as in you AREN'T anymore; nor can it imagine eternity, as in eternity with God or Satan or who/wherever you believe in.”

I got this response among others

“The human mind can totally comprehend nothingness.

 It’s called sleep.

Sure sometimes you dream, and upon waking you remember those dreams. But for every ONE time you sleep and dream and manage to remember even vague images from said dream, you sleep and remember NOTHING AT ALL WHATSOEVER about 50 times.

If that's not nothingness, I don't know what is”

~~~ After reading this I came up with what may not be a new train of thought but I thought of it myself so it’s all new to me and I hope you can learn something more about yourself having read it.

It comprises of an opening statement followed by two tests and a closing statement. Again, this will take you a long time to get through so make sure you have the time.

The only reason you don’t remember certain dreams is because they sometimes don’t transfer from your short term to long term memory receptors. The only reason you think you can comprehend nothing is because you wake up and realize, "Hell, I can't remember anything." If you never woke up from a dreamless sleep i.e. death (for the sake of argument) you would never know you didn’t remember anything therefore you couldn’t comprehend never wakening up.

On a similar topic, I also want to talk about souls, presuming there is such a thing.

 When do souls become souls? Birth? If so when a baby is still born why do people say the baby goes to heaven? If your argument is the soul arrives at conception, your argument is flawed. It's flawed unless you are willing to accept that every living cell on the human body has a soul. How is this? Sperm entering the egg.. boom, soul. What about cloning? Scientists can make human clones, and if they can't or haven't already, they sure as shit will soon. Will clones has souls? They're humans aren't they? There was no conception though you say. If the conception was in the test tube but with cells instead of sperm and egg, then all cells are potential souls... ARE souls. When they die, where do they go? Heaven? Yeah, I'm sure heaven is just packed with cell-souls. Which brings me to my second point…

 How does a baby, once dead, fully appreciate heaven? If you've followed this far and are onboard with the sperm and cell thing that just adds to the confusion. How does something with no memory or comprehension appreciate anything like heaven? Isn't the point of heaven LIKEING being there? The point of Hell is to hate being there so I guess that's right. I've raised this with a few religious people which I still am myself (It is a faith after all) and they can't seem to grasp this either. I asked and wondered, "Don't you have to be cognate to get that you're in heaven? If so when you get to heaven wouldn't a sentient mind of earthmen like us think of bad things in heaven? How can you think of something imperfect in a perfect place? This is all assuming that the heaven in question is the Christian heaven. Sex in heaven? No? Why? You don’t need it because everything is so perfect that sex is a step down from the high you get from heaven. If you can’t think of anything bad in heaven are you really you?

If you’re not really you then who the hell are you in the afterlife? If you are you in the afterlife but you can’t think of anything bad, are you just brainwashed? How is being brainwashed heaven? If you’re not you and your soul is something different from you why the hell is anyone thinking they’re going to heaven when YOU’re really not? You do all the work and this soul dude gets the results. (which could be a good thing considering some people’s track record)

If your soul goes to heaven or hell or whatever happens… Where do you go? Nowhere? Do you cease to be? Here we are again, full circle. Lets take it 540 degrees to actually attempt to get somewhere. Is you soul connected to your memory? The human mind can only comprehend it’s own memory. For example.... If you hit your head, wake up, and can’t remember anything… are you YOU? I’m saying, if your memory never returns from before that accident and you start all over… Who are you? Are you a new soul? Is your body housing two souls? Did the first one go on to the afterlife? Is it still the same soul only with two different lives remembered?

This brings me to my ultimate argument (in flowchart form) towards people saying what they KNOW is true about the afterlife of their religion. Yes I even question my OWN religion.

~~~ Please take BOTH tests (preferably more than once with different answers each time) If you don’t and then read the closing paragraph you won’t get everything I’m saying

Test 1 – Souls in afterlife –

1.      Is your soul you? i.e. in all your memories good and bad?

                                i.            yes - proceed to 2

                              ii.            no - proceed to 9

2.      You’re sure that memories = soul

                                i.            Yes - proceed to 3

                              ii.            No - proceed to 9

3.      Can you remember bad things in heaven?

                                i.            yes - proceed to 4

                              ii.            no - proceed to 6

4.      Is it possible to think about bad things in heaven?

                                i.            yes - proceed to 4

                              ii.            no - proceed to 5

5.      Remembering things make up who we are and how we live. Are you brainwashed if you can’t remember bad things that made you who you are?

                                i.            Yes - proceed to 6

                              ii.            No - proceed to 6

6.      Can you appreciate an afterlife of supposed perfection when you can’t think of anything bad, therefore giving you no frame of reference?

                                i.            Yes – proceed to 8

                              ii.            No – proceed to 7

7.      How is heaven perfect if you can’t appreciate it fully?

                                i.            It’s not I guess… wow heaven isn’t perfect

                              ii.            It just is, you aren’t brainwashed, God gives you a mind when you get there that can fathom things like eternity and being happy with complete absence of bad – This “Magic pill” argument is faith based therefore un-debatable. PERIOD. That’s not an insult, I swear. It’s just a fact. Even so, take the test again answering differently to gain new perspective on what others’ thought processes are.

8.      How is heaven perfect if you can think of bad things?

                                i.            It’s not I guess… wow heaven isn’t perfect

                              ii.            It just is, you aren’t brainwashed, God gives you a mind when you get there that can fathom things like eternity and being happy with complete absence of bad – This “Magic pill” argument is faith based therefore un-debatable. PERIOD. That’s not an insult, I swear. It’s just a fact. Even so, take the test again answering differently to gain new perspective on what others’ thought processes are.

9.      If not, why are people scared to go to hell and looking forward to heaven when it’s not even them that goes there but their soul (an entirely different entity)?

                                i.            Hmm - proceed to 10

10. Where do you go if your soul goes to heaven and not your memories? (assuming you are your memories)

                                i.            Nowhere. You cease to exist, your soul goes to heaven, and therefore there is no hope for eternal life.

                              ii.            Your memories do go to heaven – proceed to 11

11.  All of them?

                                i.            Yes, even the bad ones – proceed to 8

                              ii.            No, just the good ones – proceed to 5

 

 

Test 2 – Souls on earth –

1.      At what point in human life does a soul arrive?

                                i.            Conception – proceed to 8

                              ii.            Birth – proceed to 4

                            iii.            When “awareness” is attained -- This is a new one that is up to the individiual and is what (I think) I believe now. There's nowhere to go from here but if you take this test again and again you might believe this too... if you believe in souls and God at all that is.

2.      Does masturbating and ovulating make us mass murderers?

                                i.            Yes, because life has a soul at that point – proceed to 9

                              ii.            No, because life has no soul at that point – proceed to 1

3.      Do clones have souls?

                                i.            Yes, a human that is walking around like anyone else has a soul – proceed to 6

                              ii.            No, because there was no conception – proceed to 7

4.      When infants die do they go to heaven?

                                i.            Yes – Proceed to 5

                              ii.            No – wow a new thought, proceed to 1

5.      Can a mind that does not comprehend the greatness of heaven appreciate it?

                                i.            Yes – God gives you a mind when you get there that can fathom things like eternity and being happy with complete absence of bad  – This “Magic pill” argument is faith based therefore un-debatable. PERIOD. That’s not an insult, I swear. It’s just a fact. Even so, take the test again answering differently to gain new perspective on what others’ thought processes are. If not proceed to **** ! ****(the closing statement)

                              ii.            No – Why do babies go to heaven then? Why do souls do to heaven when they have no comprehension of heaven - Proceed to 1

6.      If there was no conception, how can there be a soul?

                                i.            Umm, I don’t know – proceed to 1

                              ii.            Life begins at the cellular level. Because clones are derived from cells, all living cells are potential humans – proceed to 7

7.      So as potential humans, do cells have souls?

                                i.            Yes – proceed to 2

                              ii.            No – proceed to 1

8.      Life at conception means cellular life is capable of housing a soul

                                i.            True – proceed to 2

                              ii.            False – proceed to 1

9.      Do cell/souls go to heaven?

                                i.            Yes – Wow heaven is packed with every soul from every blood cell, skin cell, sperm cell (1 billion a day produced for the average man) of every human that ever lived… ever – proceed to 10

                              ii.            No – proceed to 1

10. Umm on second thought…

                                i.            Proceed to 1

 

Closing Statement –

**** ! ****

Why even live then? To serve God? As a test? Was God so bored that he created things with free will (besides Adam and Eve and we can hardly be blamed for their screw-up) just to see if they will serve him or not? If God is infallible then how did he get bored? If he wasn’t bored and created us to serve him, why give us free will to NOT serve him? Because that would be BORING? You see where I’m getting at here? “Magic-pill” answers that explain that God will allow us to understand this in heaven is easy and frankly in my humble opinion lazy. Is untested faith really worth having? Is tested faith still faith?  Peter wanted proof of Christ’s resurrection and it was said that his faith was not on par with those who just had faith that he could come back to life without actually seeing it. This type of faith seems… I dunno. I don’t want to seem insulting but it seems really easy to go through life believing in something but never testing your faith in it. How is that righteous? How is being a blind follower good? If you say that you’re not blind and know what you believe in and why, than it can be said that your faith has been tested. How did you test it? Why? If you tested it you probably arrived at the “magic pill” theory, (God gives you a mind when you get there that can fathom things like eternity and being happy with complete absence of bad) Also, I’m not forgetting that some people believe that God doesn’t bestow this knowledge on us even in heaven and we are just happy happy joy joy in heaven without a care in the world… but that’s still the “magic pill” theory isn’t it? Yes, because differentiates human souls and angels. Angels being soulless drones/robots God made only to serve and that can’t think. This brings up a couple of questions.

If Angels can’t think and God controls them… why doesn’t God just do what he wants himself? Because he’s bored?

Also

All the angels that sided with Satan that could obviously think, putting a hole in either your idea about what angels are or in your idea that God is infallible… unless it’s all God’s plan… which is another “magic pill” We’re in heaven not as angels but as souls different from the angels. If there is a difference it’s that we can think and they cannot… but can we think in heaven? Refer to the first test again to answer these questions. If you already have, then where does that leave us?

If you’ve read everything I hope you have come away with one of two things.

1.      You’ve realized what your faith in God and the afterlife really entails, and that it’s not just something you say anymore. You now know what real faith takes in order to still believe in something. You finally know what faith is… Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

2.      You’ve realized that you don’t believe the things you’ve been taught. You’ve left your life unchecked thus far but now have a better understanding of who you are.

 

Question everything.

 

Red

 

P.S. As you can see, this is a lot of writing so please forgive any errors.

Disclaimer ====  This may not turn out to be a bulletproof argument as it relies on knowledge of the Christian faith at times. It also is a very narrow coursed argument... this is purposeful. Otherwise, I'd never be able to end the post.

RedfeatheR

Okay.

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Batman created by Bob Kane

You've kind of lost me right here. I'm not sure I'm getting why "nothing" needs to comprehended in order to be a valid solution to what happens to you when you die.

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I was gonna send a robot back in time, but I got high.

RedfeatheR

IT'S A TRAP!

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The following statement its true. The previous statement is false

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the kid's getting old, the kid's getting old

The_young_scot

IT'S A TRAP!

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Nothing like finding an endless loop in your soul code.

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100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

If I could think about bad things in heaven, I'd never leave the house.

 

 

 

RedfeatheR, I don't mean to make light of something you've obviously put a lot of thought and work into. Skimming through it, I don't believe in souls so I didn't get a lot out of it. There are some good philosophers out there that you should dig into. I'd start with David Hume, because you might as well learn it from the best.

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You can take the heart out of the hooker but you can't take the hooker out of the heart. -- Frankenhooker

I'll chime in here with my $.02.

I don't have much of a religious background. I think my dad was raised Catholic, but stopped going at some point before well before I was born. I recall my mom going to church with us when I was younger, but I don't think we went regularly after early grade school.

I must have found some loophole in high school and became an Eagle Scout despite being basically an athiest. I suppose I lied a lot during the Scout oaths.

My latest run in with religion involved marrying a Catholic. (Not a very good Catholic, mind you.) We had a Catholic wedding ceremony. Both our kids have been baptized, which I think was done more because my wife is worried about what her parents and other family would think if it wasn't done. I was there for moral support, but I refused to spout any of the religious hoopla that my wife and the godparents were chanting because I'd gotten tired of pretending like I believed in any of it.

So that's where I'm at.

As far as organized religion goes, I haven't come across anything that I feel that I can believe. It all just sounds, well, kinda silly. My faith all seems to be in science. There's an awful lot of science facts that I take as complete truth. Heck, I've never seen an atom, but apparently they make up everything. I believe that if I really wanted to, I could track down someone smarter than me who could explain any science fact in a way that I would understand and believe. I've also had someone I felt was fairly intelligent try and tell me why dinosaurs were around 6,000 years ago. I can't remember his side of the argument, but I'm pretty sure I thought he was nuts. I don't understand carbon dating well enough to explain it to someone else, but I still believe in it. I just can't digest the 'God just made everything look really old' argument.

That isn't to say I'm 100% against the idea of any sort of diety. It's just that if I had to bet, it wouldn't be on Jesus.

If in fact I'm wrong, and there is some omnipotent being keeping tabs on us, then I hope the bible is all wrong. I would hope that a person's actions in life would be used as a metric to where we're going in the afterlife, and not simply a belief in God. I try to live a good life. I'm nice to people, I don't beat my kids, I let people merge in traffic, I don't kill things for fun, I don't steal shit... I'm not perfect, but I see myself as being on the 'Good' side of things. I can't fathom how there could be some afterlife in which I'd be turned away while some murderous thug gets in, just because he accepted Jesus Christ as his personal lord and savior.

If that's how it is, then I guess I'm fucked. At least I have the pleasure of knowing that the majority of people on Earth that I care about share my beliefs, and will be ending up wherever I go.

I've shared Red's terror at not knowing what's going to happen to me when I die. I know there always tomorrow, and it's spooky thinking that at some point, there won't be. It'll all be over, and chances are that unlike Super Mario Brothers, I won't immediately be starting another life.

That's probably one reason why people turn to religion. They're scared shitless, and they need to believe that there's something better out there, waiting for us.

I don't know what's coming, and I don't really care. Maybe I'll change my mind when I get closer to death. For now, I'm going to just keep on living. Shit, I've probably still got a good 40 or 50 years left, and that's plenty for them to perfect cryongenics. Or for the aliens to show up and teach us the secret of immortality. Or for them to perfect the technology of downloading a person's mind into an android. Something is bound to happen.

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100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

i'd probably rather go to hell. most of my family is religious, so at least they'd get to go to heaven. right now the way it stands, i believe that when we die, we die. phoomp. so at least if i go to hell i could save peeps i love, even if it costs me a pitchfork up my ass.

also, i think the idea of hell frightens me less than the idea of non-existence. probably because part of the megalomaniacal human condition is that we can't fathom a universe existing without us in it, the same way a 3 year old can't fathom how people can see them if they've covered their own eyes

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what if nigger meant kite

gabe_billingsw0rd. adopting a religion used to be the only option available to us if we wanted to try to satisfy the basic human need to understand where we came from, where we are, what the hell's going on. for most people, science serves this role now. the same way representational painting lost a good deal of its usefulness with the advent of photography, so religion lost a good deal of its own with the increase of scientific knowledge

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what if nigger meant kite

Red- sorry man. Even with the warning your initial post is too much for my short attention span. I blame MTV...

Also I really hate Creationism and feel that if people who expound it were beaten savagely with a dinosaur bone, they could be made to feel that the bone in question was much older than 6,000 years.

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Kill Whitey.

I've begun to come to the conclusion that the best thing for my own peace of mind is to simply stop giving a flying fuck what other people think.  My own opinions and feelings are all that really matter to me anyway.

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Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

That's too bad, because I was forming this really positive opinion of you. But now I'm not going to bother wasting on you. I mean, if you're not going to give a flying fuck anyway...

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I was gonna send a robot back in time, but I got high.

I look at it this way...

I don't know/remember ANYTHING before I was born...I assume that is what it will be like when I die.

Zaster

Well, if I agree with someone else's opinion, that's entirely different.

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Legend, oh legend, the third wheel legend...always in the way.

Cre8tive13i remember what it was like before you were born

AWESOME

there was no war, people were highfiving all the time, free cheese

 

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what if nigger meant kite

mandingo

I hope your mom got that cleared up after she popped you out.

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100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

You have to be impressed with the human animal. We created god in our own image. That was quite an accomplishment. When we looked for answers and could find none, we created our own to carry us through and that's initiative. Unfortunately somewhere along the line someone forgot that WE are the ones pulling the strings. Not an invisible magic sky daddy. Like a lot of children do, humans have outgrown their imaginary friend 'god'. Probably about time too.

I understand wanting to believe in something bigger than ourselves and I've got nothing against a person having personal beliefs but they never stay that way. Religion is just another reason to hate each other. 'My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend'. In fact my imaginary friend told me to kill you so we can end the world. Apocalypse mambo!

Yeah. Someone get the thorazine. Stat.

It's reached such a frenzied cluster fuck that there are people letting their children die of easily treated diseases because they think an invisible magic fairy is going to fix it and doctors are eeeeevil. And let's not forget the catholics and their pedo-palaces of priestly boy love. But it's ok because ratzi the nazi covered it up for them. Such holy folk one and all.

As for life and afterlife the answer is: 42

There is no actual answer because no one knows and no one has returned to tell us anything.

I think it is unlikely that there is anything beyond this singular existence that we have. However there is always the possibility that we have simply not reached a point in our evolution where we are able to understand or measure the 'after death' experience whatever it may be. It is possible that something of us may exist beyond the life of our physical bodies.

I would like to think that there is more beyond this physical life. That perhaps there is another dimension of existence that we have yet to experience. It is certainly true that 'being' is preferable to 'non being'. I would rather not pass away into nothing and cease to be. However if the alternative is to end up as a bit part in a never ending Dante-esque morality play then count me out.

If our only choices are 'hell' and 'non existence' then I'll take door number two Bob. I don't know what life is like for anyone else but myself but from this angle I can honestly say I would welcome the peace of oblivion.  Besides, it's their hell, let them burn in it.

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“Life is intrinsically... boring and dangerous at the same time. At any given moment the floor may open up. Of course it almost never does; that's what makes it so boring.”--Ogdred Weary

This thread has angered the Lord, causing him to lift his hand of protection. Now Madonna is seeking a divorce from Guy Ritchie and Kanye was booed at Bonnaroo. I hope you people are happy.

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I was gonna send a robot back in time, but I got high.

Zaster

 

Hell yeah!

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“Life is intrinsically... boring and dangerous at the same time. At any given moment the floor may open up. Of course it almost never does; that's what makes it so boring.”--Ogdred Weary

gabe_billings

I hope your mom got that cleared up after she popped you out.

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she scooped it all out with one of those Snoopy Snow Cone shovels and gave it to the boys in the chem lab

but this conversation probably belongs in your birthday thread

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what if nigger meant kite