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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

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A note from our next president... almost as long as a mak post but not as blathering.
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This election is about choices. The most important choices a president makes are about protecting America at home and around the world. A president's first obligation is to make America safer, stronger and truer to our ideals.

Three years ago, the events of September 11 reminded every American of that obligation. That day brought to our shores the defining struggle of our times: the struggle between freedom and radical fundamentalism. And it made clear that our most important task is to fight and to win the war on terrorism.

In fighting the war on terrorism, my principles are straight forward. The terrorists are beyond reason. We must destroy them. As president, I will do whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to defeat our enemies. But billions of people around the world yearning for a better life are open to America's ideals. We must reach them.

To win, America must be strong. And America must be smart. The greatest threat we face is the possibility Al Qaeda or other terrorists will get their hands on a nuclear weapon.

To prevent that from happening, we must call on the totality of America's strength -- strong alliances, to help us stop the world's most lethal weapons from falling into the most dangerous hands. A powerful military, transformed to meet the new threats of terrorism and the spread of weapons of mass destruction. And all of America's power -- our diplomacy, our intelligence system, our economic power, the appeal of our values -- each of which is critical to making America more secure and preventing a new generation of terrorists from emerging.

National security is a central issue in this campaign. We owe it to the American people to have a real debate about the choices President Bush has made and the choices I would make to fight and win the war on terror.

That means we must have a great honest national debate on Iraq. The president claims it is the centerpiece of his war on terror. In fact, Iraq was a profound diversion from that war and the battle against our greatest enemy, Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. Invading Iraq has created a crisis of historic proportions and, if we do not change course, there is the prospect of a war with no end in sight.

This month, we passed a cruel milestone: more than 1,000 Americans lost in Iraq. Their sacrifice reminds us that Iraq remains, overwhelmingly, an American burden. Nearly 90 percent of the troops -- and nearly 90 percent of the casualties -- are American. Despite the president's claims, this is not a grand coalition.

Our troops have served with extraordinary bravery, skill and resolve. Their service humbles all of us. When I speak to them when I look into the eyes of their families, I know this: we owe them the truth about what we have asked them to do and what is still to be done.

In June, the president declared, "The Iraqi people have their country back." Just last week, he told us: "This country is headed toward democracy. Freedom is on the march."

But the administration's own official intelligence estimate, given to the president last July, tells a very different story.

According to press reports, the intelligence estimate totally contradicts what the president is saying to the American people.

So do the facts on the ground.

Security is deteriorating, for us and for the Iraqis.

42 Americans died in Iraq in June -- the month before the handover. But 54 died in July -- 66 in August and already 54 halfway through September.

And more than 1,100 Americans were wounded in August -- more than in any other month since the invasion.

We are fighting a growing insurgency in an ever widening war-zone. In March, insurgents attacked our forces 700 times. In August, they attacked 2,700 times -- a 400% increase.

Falluja, Ramadi, Samarra, even parts of Baghdad -- are now "no go zones" -- breeding grounds for terrorists who are free to plot and launch attacks against our soldiers. The radical Shiite cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, who is accused of complicity in the murder of Americans, holds more sway in the suburbs of Baghdad.

Violence against Iraqis from bombings to kidnappings to intimidation is on the rise.

Basic living conditions are also deteriorating.

Residents of Baghdad are suffering electricity blackouts lasting up to 14 hours a day.

Raw sewage fills the streets, rising above the hubcaps of our Humvees. Children wade through garbage on their way to school.

Unemployment is over 50 percent. Insurgents are able to find plenty of people willing to take $150 for tossing grenades at passing U.S. convoys.

Yes, there has been some progress, thanks to the extraordinary efforts of our soldiers and civilians in Iraq. Schools, shops and hospitals have been opened. In parts of Iraq, normalcy actually prevails.

But most Iraqis have lost faith in our ability to deliver meaningful improvements to their lives. So they're sitting on the fence instead of siding with us against the insurgents.

That is the truth -- the truth that the commander in chief owes to our troops and the American people.

It is never easy to discuss what has gone wrong while our troops are in constant danger. But it's essential if we want to correct our course and do what's right for our troops instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

I know this dilemma first-hand. After serving in war, I returned home to offer my own personal voice of dissent. I did so because I believed strongly that we owed it those risking their lives to speak truth to power. We still do.

Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell. But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: we have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure.

The president has said that he "miscalculated" in Iraq and that it was a "catastrophic success." In fact, the president has made a series of catastrophic decisions from the beginning in Iraq. At every fork in the road, he has taken the wrong turn and led us in the wrong direction.

The first and most fundamental mistake was the president's failure to tell the truth to the American people.

He failed to tell the truth about the rationale for going to war. And he failed to tell the truth about the burden this war would impose on our soldiers and our citizens.

By one count, the president offered 23 different rationales for this war. If his purpose was to confuse and mislead the American people, he succeeded.

His two main rationales -- weapons of mass destruction and the Al Qaeda/September 11 connection -- have been proved false by the president's own weapons inspectors and by the 9/11 Commission. Just last week, Secretary of State Powell acknowledged the facts. Only Vice President Cheney still insists that the earth is flat.

The president also failed to level with the American people about what it would take to prevail in Iraq.

He didn't tell us that well over 100,000 troops would be needed, for years, not months. He didn't tell us that he wouldn't take the time to assemble a broad and strong coalition of allies. He didn't tell us that the cost would exceed $200 billion. He didn't tell us that even after paying such a heavy price, success was far from assured.

And America will pay an even heavier price for the president's lack of candor.

At home, the American people are less likely to trust this administration if it needs to summon their support to meet real and pressing threats to our security.

Abroad, other countries will be reluctant to follow America when we seek to rally them against a common menace -- as they are today. Our credibility in the world has plummeted.

In the dark days of the Cuban Missile Crisis, President Kennedy sent former Secretary of State Dean Acheson to Europe to build support. Acheson explained the situation to French President de Gaulle. Then he offered to show him highly classified satellite photos, as proof. De Gaulle waved the photos away, saying: "The word of the president of the United States is good enough for me."

How many world leaders have that same trust in America's president, today?

This president's failure to tell the truth to us before the war has been exceeded by fundamental errors of judgment during and after the war.

The president now admits to "miscalculations" in Iraq.

That is one of the greatest understatements in recent American history. His were not the equivalent of accounting errors. They were colossal failures of judgment -- and judgment is what we look for in a president.

This is all the more stunning because we're not talking about 20/20 hindsight. Before the war, before he chose to go to war, bi-partisan Congressional hearings... major outside studies... and even some in the administration itself... predicted virtually every problem we now face in Iraq.

This president was in denial. He hitched his wagon to the ideologues who surround him, filtering out those who disagreed, including leaders of his own party and the uniformed military. The result is a long litany of misjudgments with terrible consequences.

The administration told us we'd be greeted as liberators. They were wrong.

They told us not to worry about looting or the sorry state of Iraq's infrastructure. They were wrong.

They told us we had enough troops to provide security and stability, defeat the insurgents, guard the borders and secure the arms depots. They were wrong.

They told us we could rely on exiles like Ahmed Chalabi to build political legitimacy. They were wrong.

They told us we would quickly restore an Iraqi civil service to run the country and a police force and army to secure it. They were wrong.

In Iraq, this administration has consistently over-promised and under-performed. This policy has been plagued by a lack of planning, an absence of candor, arrogance and outright incompetence. And the president has held no one accountable, including himself.

In fact, the only officials who lost their jobs over Iraq were the ones who told the truth.

General Shinseki said it would take several hundred thousand troops to secure Iraq. He was retired. Economic adviser Larry Lindsey said that Iraq would cost as much as $200 billion. He was fired. After the successful entry into Baghdad, George Bush was offered help from the UN -- and he rejected it. He even prohibited any nation from participating in reconstruction efforts that wasn't part of the original coalition -- pushing reluctant countries even farther away. As we continue to fight this war almost alone, it is hard to estimate how costly that arrogant decision was. Can anyone seriously say this president has handled Iraq in a way that makes us stronger in the war on terrorism?

By any measure, the answer is no. Nuclear dangers have mounted across the globe. The international terrorist club has expanded. Radicalism in the Middle East is on the rise. We have divided our friends and united our enemies. And our standing in the world is at an all time low.

Think about it for a minute. Consider where we were... and where we are. After the events of September 11, we had an opportunity to bring our country and the world together in the struggle against the terrorists. On September 12, headlines in newspapers abroad declared "we are all Americans now." But through his policy in Iraq, the president squandered that moment and rather than isolating the terrorists, left America isolated from the world.

We now know that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and posed no imminent threat to our security. It had not, as the vice president claimed, "reconstituted nuclear weapons."

The president's policy in Iraq took our attention and resources away from other, more serious threats to America.

Threats like North Korea, which actually has weapons of mass destruction, including a nuclear arsenal, and is building more under this president's watch -- the emerging nuclear danger from Iran -- the tons and kilotons of unsecured chemical and nuclear weapons in Russia -- and the increasing instability in Afghanistan.

Today, warlords again control much of that country, the Taliban is regrouping, opium production is at an all time high and the Al Qaeda leadership still plots and plans, not only there but in 60 other nations. Instead of using U.S. forces, we relied on the warlords to capture Osama bin Laden when he was cornered in the mountains. He slipped away. We then diverted our focus and forces from the hunt for those responsible for September 11 in order invade Iraq.

We know Iraq played no part in September 11 and had no operational ties to Al Qaeda.

The president's policy in Iraq precipitated the very problem he said he was trying to prevent. Secretary of State Powell admits that Iraq was not a magnet for international terrorists before the war. Now it is, and they are operating against our troops. Iraq is becoming a sanctuary for a new generation of terrorists who someday could hit the United States.

We know that while Iraq was a source of friction, it was not previously a source of serious disagreement with our allies in Europe and countries in the Muslim world.

The president's policy in Iraq divided our oldest alliance and sent our standing in the Muslim world into free fall. Three years after 9/11, even in many moderate Muslim countries like Jordan, Morocco, and Turkey, Osama bin Laden is more popular than the United States of America.

Let me put it plainly: The president's policy in Iraq has not strengthened our national security. It has weakened it.

Two years ago, Congress was right to give the president the authority to use force to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. This president, any president would have needed the threat of force to act effectively. This president misused that authority.

The power entrusted to the president gave him a strong hand to play in the international community. The idea was simple. We would get the weapons inspectors back in to verify whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And we would convince the world to speak with one voice to Saddam: disarm or be disarmed.

A month before the war, President Bush told the nation: "If we have to act, we will take every precaution that is possible. We will plan carefully. We will act with the full power of the United States military. We will act with allies at our side and we will prevail." He said that military action wasn't "unavoidable."

Instead, the president rushed to war without letting the weapons inspectors finish their work. He went without a broad and deep coalition of allies. He acted without making sure our troops had enough body armor. And he plunged ahead without understanding or preparing for the consequences of the post-war. None of which I would have done.

Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again, the same way. How can he possibly be serious? Is he really saying that if we knew there were no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to Al Qaeda, the United States should have invaded Iraq? My answer is no -- because a commander in chief's first responsibility is to make a wise and responsible decision to keep America safe.

Now the president, in looking for a new reason, tries to hang his hat on the "capability" to acquire weapons. But that was not the reason given to the nation; it was not the reason Congress voted on; it's not a reason, it's an excuse. Thirty-five to forty countries have greater capability to build a nuclear bomb than Iraq did in 2003. Is President Bush saying we should invade them?

I would have concentrated our power and resources on defeating global terrorism and capturing or killing Osama bin Laden. I would have tightened the noose and continued to pressure and isolate Saddam Hussein -- who was weak and getting weaker -- so that he would pose no threat to the region or America.

The president's insistence that he would do the same thing all over again in Iraq is a clear warning for the future. And it makes the choice in this election clear: more of the same with President Bush or a new direction that makes our troops and America safer. It is time, at long last, to ask the questions and insist on the answers from the commander in chief about his serious misjudgments and what they tell us about his administration and the president himself. If George W. Bush is re-elected, he will cling to the same failed policies in Iraq -- and he will repeat, somewhere else, the same reckless mistakes that have made America less secure than we can or should be.

In Iraq, we have a mess on our hands. But we cannot throw up our hands. We cannot afford to see Iraq become a permanent source of terror that will endanger America's security for years to come.

All across this country people ask me what we should do now. Every step of the way, from the time I first spoke about this in the Senate, I have set out specific recommendations about how we should and should not proceed. But over and over, when this administration has been presented with a reasonable alternative, they have rejected it and gone their own way. This is stubborn incompetence.

Five months ago, in Fulton, Missouri, I said that the president was close to his last chance to get it right. Every day, this president makes it more difficult to deal with Iraq -- harder than it was five months ago, harder than it was a year ago. It is time to recognize what is -- and what is not -- happening in Iraq today. And we must act with urgency.

Just this weekend, a leading Republican, Chuck Hagel, said we're "in deep trouble in Iraq ... it doesn't add up ... to a pretty picture [and] ... we're going to have to look at a recalibration of our policy." Republican leaders like Dick Lugar and John McCain have offered similar assessments.

We need to turn the page and make a fresh start in Iraq.

First, the president has to get the promised international support so our men and women in uniform don't have to go it alone. It is late; the president must respond by moving this week to gain and regain international support.

Last spring, after too many months of resistance and delay, the president finally went back to the U.N. which passed Resolution 1546. It was the right thing to do -- but it was late.

That resolution calls on U.N. members to help in Iraq by providing troops, trainers for Iraq's security forces, a special brigade to protect the U.N. mission, more financial assistance, and real debt relief.

Three months later, not a single country has answered that call. And the president acts as if it doesn't matter.

And of the $13 billion previously pledged to Iraq by other countries, only $1.2 billion has been delivered.

The president should convene a summit meeting of the world's major powers and Iraq's neighbors, this week, in New York, where many leaders will attend the U.N. General Assembly. He should insist that they make good on that U.N. resolution. He should offer potential troop contributors specific, but critical roles, in training Iraqi security personnel and securing Iraq's borders. He should give other countries a stake in Iraq's future by encouraging them to help develop Iraq's oil resources and by letting them bid on contracts instead of locking them out of the reconstruction process.

This will be difficult. I and others have repeatedly recommended this from the very beginning. Delay has made only made it harder. After insulting allies and shredding alliances, this president may not have the trust and confidence to bring others to our side in Iraq. But we cannot hope to succeed unless we rebuild and lead strong alliances so that other nations share the burden with us. That is the only way to succeed.

Second, the president must get serious about training Iraqi security forces.

Last February, Secretary Rumsfeld claimed that more than 210,000 Iraqis were in uniform. Two weeks ago, he admitted that claim was exaggerated by more than 50 percent. Iraq, he said, now has 95,000 trained security forces.

But guess what? Neither number bears any relationship to the truth. For example, just 5,000 Iraqi soldiers have been fully trained, by the administration's own minimal standards. And of the 35,000 police now in uniform, not one has completed a 24-week field-training program. Is it any wonder that Iraqi security forces can't stop the insurgency or provide basic law and order?

The president should urgently expand the security forces training program inside and outside Iraq. He should strengthen the vetting of recruits, double classroom training time, and require follow-on field training. He should recruit thousands of qualified trainers from our allies, especially those who have no troops in Iraq. He should press our NATO allies to open training centers in their countries. And he should stop misleading the American people with phony, inflated numbers.

Third, the president must carry out a reconstruction plan that finally brings tangible benefits to the Iraqi people.

Last week, the administration admitted that its plan was a failure when it asked Congress for permission to radically revise spending priorities in Iraq. It took 17 months for them to understand that security is a priority, 17 months to figure out that boosting oil production is critical, 17 months to conclude that an Iraqi with a job is less likely to shoot at our soldiers.

One year ago, the administration asked for and received $18 billion to help the Iraqis and relieve the conditions that contribute to the insurgency. Today, less than a $1 billion of those funds have actually been spent. I said at the time that we had to rethink our policies and set standards of accountability. Now we're paying the price.

Now, the president should look at the whole reconstruction package, draw up a list of high visibility, quick impact projects, and cut through the red tape. He should use more Iraqi contractors and workers, instead of big corporations like Halliburton. He should stop paying companies under investigation for fraud or corruption. And he should fire the civilians in the Pentagon responsible for mismanaging the reconstruction effort.

Fourth, the president must take immediate, urgent, essential steps to guarantee the promised elections can be held next year.

Credible elections are key to producing an Iraqi government that enjoys the support of the Iraqi people and an assembly to write a Constitution that yields a viable power sharing arrangement.

Because Iraqis have no experience holding free and fair elections, the president agreed six months ago that the U.N. must play a central role. Yet today, just four months before Iraqis are supposed to go to the polls, the U.N. Secretary General and administration officials themselves say the elections are in grave doubt. Because the security situation is so bad and because not a single country has offered troops to protect the U.N. elections mission, the U.N. has less than 25 percent of the staff it needs in Iraq to get the job done.

The president should recruit troops from our friends and allies for a U.N. protection force. This won't be easy. But even countries that refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq should still help protect the U.N. We should also intensify the training of Iraqis to manage and guard the polling places that need to be opened. Otherwise, U.S forces would end up bearing those burdens alone.

If the president would move in this direction, if he would bring in more help from other countries to provide resources and forces, train the Iraqis to provide their own security, develop a reconstruction plan that brings real benefits to the Iraqi people, and take the steps necessary to hold credible elections next year -- we could begin to withdraw U.S. forces starting next summer and realistically aim to bring all our troops home within the next four years.

This is what has to be done. This is what I would do as president today. But we cannot afford to wait until January. President Bush owes it to the American people to tell the truth and put Iraq on the right track. Even more, he owes it to our troops and their families, whose sacrifice is a testament to the best of America.

The principles that should guide American policy in Iraq now and in the future are clear: We must make Iraq the world's responsibility, because the world has a stake in the outcome and others should share the burden. We must effectively train Iraqis, because they should be responsible for their own security. We must move forward with reconstruction, because that's essential to stop the spread of terror. And we must help Iraqis achieve a viable government, because it's up to them to run their own country. That's the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home.

On May 1 of last year, President Bush stood in front of a now infamous banner that read "Mission Accomplished." He declared to the American people: "In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." In fact, the worst part of the war was just beginning, with the greatest number of American casualties still to come. The president misled, miscalculated, and mismanaged every aspect of this undertaking and he has made the achievement of our objective -- a stable Iraq, secure within its borders, with a representative government, harder to achieve.

In Iraq, this administration's record is filled with bad predictions, inaccurate cost estimates, deceptive statements and errors of judgment of historic proportions.

At every critical juncture in Iraq, and in the war on terrorism, the president has made the wrong choice. I have a plan to make America stronger.

The president often says that in a post 9/11 world, we can't hesitate to act. I agree. But we should not act just for the sake of acting. I believe we have to act wisely and responsibly.

George Bush has no strategy for Iraq. I do.

George Bush has not told the truth to the American people about why we went to war and how the war is going. I have and I will continue to do so.

I believe the invasion of Iraq has made us less secure and weaker in the war against terrorism. I have a plan to fight a smarter, more effective war on terror -- and make us safer.

Today, because of George Bush's policy in Iraq, the world is a more dangerous place for America and Americans.

If you share my conviction that we can not go on as we are that we can make America stronger and safer than it is then November 2 is your chance to speak and to be heard. It is not a question of staying the course, but of changing the course.

I'm convinced that with the right leadership, we can create a fresh start and move more effectively to accomplish our goals. Our troops have served with extraordinary courage and commitment. For their sake, and America's sake, we must get this right. We must do everything in our power to complete the mission and make America stronger at home and respected again in the world.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

John Kerry

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

9-20-04 7:46pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

Smug Prick #56,935 Collect them all!

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

9-20-04 8:08pm (new)
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Kr0n1c
Product of The California School System

Member Rated:

I just want to make sure everyone understands I was not posting the deleted pics to show off "mutilated children". There are many people in the world who do not take serious the subject of war. Many people cannot grasp the true evil and horror of war. This is the ugly reality of what happens during a full military invasion. Sometimes war cannot be avoided, but if a country is gonna proceed to invade another and take the lives of the innocent then it better be for a dam good reason. When I first came across these pics I was sick to my stomach. I was angry at the evilness in the hearts of men. As a father I would never want this to happen to my child. When I see how some people could make lite of this subject I decided to show them how truly serious the problem in Iraq is. I don't think it worked and I apoligize to anyone I have offended

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Get Your War On

9-20-04 9:08pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

One day my tireless campaigning will pay off.

9-21-04 7:31am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

Who ya gonna call?

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-21-04 8:30am (new)
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Kr0n1c
Product of The California School System

Member Rated:

Forumbusters! I ain't afraid of no post!

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Get Your War On

9-21-04 10:04am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Then why not tell both sides of the story? What about pictures of Saddam's victims? What about pictures of the terrorists' victims? What about pictures of the 9-11 victims? What about pictures of the children killed by Chechen terrorists in Russia? What about picutres of beheaded hostages? What about pictures of children suicide bombers?

We don't target children on purpose. The enemy would love to kill our children instead of us. You attack the good guys when you say we're monsters because a child gets injured in war. You're like John Kerry going on about cutting off heads and killing children when there are people in the war effort trying to do the right thing. You try to present a minute snapshot and present that as indicative of the entire war.

And he's doing the same thing now, trying to villify us in Iraq. Pick a side. The side you're leaning to would give you a nice big warm welcome. (Right before they sawed off your head and sent it to Al Jazeera)

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-21-04 11:26am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Brint it on, amatures

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that the Kerry campaign jumped up and screamed a shrill "me too!" in their hamfisted attempt to smear Bush's honorable Vietnam service, or the complete incompetence of their poor imitaiton of the successful Swift Boat Vet campaign.

Here's a clue: the most successful ad about Kerry's Vietnam trechery used Kerry's own audio, and contained nothing that could be factualy challanged.

The clock is ticking on making a rock solid CBS - Kerry campaign link. I'd like to meet the man on the campaign whose brilliant plan was thwarted by bloggers.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-21-04 11:34am (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

You're right about Saddam's victims. If you're going to criticise the invasion because it maimed and killed a lot of kids, you have to take into account the kids that would have been maimed and killed if Saddam had stayed in power. I don't know why pictures of the 9/11 victims would be pertinent to this discussion, though. And anyway, we've all seen them plenty already. It's hardly news.

What makes it "Vietnam service" when he's never been to Vietnam or had anything to do with it?

That's the one that shows Kerry going on about American soldiers raping and pillaging, but misses out the bit where he says he's just quoting allegations that others have made?

9-21-04 1:05pm (new)
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Kr0n1c
Product of The California School System

Member Rated:

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. Al Qaeda militant cowards are responsible for 9/11. Bush has spent almost 200 billion in Iraq. That is money that could have been better spent tracking bin Laden and Al Qaeda terrorist cells. I agree that Saddam is a evil dictator, but Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

Very unfortunate to have happened, but again having nothing to do with Iraq. The war in Iraq will not in anyway stop terrorist. The war in Iraq will do more to increase terrorist acts and give fuel to their false ideologies.

Acts of cowards. Those responsible for the beheadings should be put to death.

Children suicide bombers are a prime example on how evil men can take a religion and transform it into a brainwashing tool for young impressionable minds.
The people responsible for the support and organization of suicide bombing, especially children suicide bombers, are truly monsters.

I know we don't target children on purpose. We do know that during a war children and other innocent victims will be killed. This is why I stated before that if we go into a war it better be for a dam good reason. What reasons did we go to war with Iraq? We went to war with Iraq over weapons of mass destruction that don't exist, a loose connection to Al Qaeda (which the 9/11 council has debunked), and the notion that Saddam's regime in Iraq possed a threat to America. Iraq has never been a threat to the security of America. So now that the reasons for going into war with Iraq given to us by Bush are known to be false, who should take responsibilty for the deaths of American troops and innocent victims in Iraq? I say Bush and the Islamic militant cowards.

I never attacked the good guys. I attacked the ones responsible for the atrocities in Iraq.

Give me a better understanding on what this quote meant. Seems like your trying to associate a negative image with Kerry and my views on the war in Iraq.

The snapshots I posted are not the entirety of war, but I believe they are one of the most harsh realities of war which can not be taken light of. War is death.

quote:
And he's doing the same thing now, trying to villify us in Iraq. Pick a side. The side you're leaning to would give you a nice big warm welcome. (Right before they sawed off your head and sent it to Al Jazeera)
quote:

I am assuming you are speaking about Kerry in this quote. Kerry is not trying to project America as a villian. Kerry is showing the American public the failure of Bush's leadership in Iraq. You are aligning Kerry with the enemy when you know as well as everyone that Kerry is not sympathetic to the enemy.

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Get Your War On

9-21-04 1:22pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

Would we have gone to war in Iraq if 9-11 hadn't have happened? No.

You are wrong.

Money well spent given the past actions of Saddam Hussein and the resources available to him.

Very unfortunate to have happened, but again having nothing to do with Iraq. The war in Iraq will not in anyway stop terrorist.


How do you know that? You don't.

You don't know this either. You make false assertions.

How would they [the beheaders] be put to death if we don't restore law and order and / or catch them?

quote:
Children suicide bombers are a prime example on how evil men can take a religion and transform it into a brainwashing tool for young impressionable minds.
The people responsible for the support and organization of suicide bombing, especially children suicide bombers, are truly monsters.

But you'd rather show pictures of wounded children and claim America did it. The "true monsters" right?

Our national security is a pretty good reason.

Saddam Hussein is ultimately responsible for the situation in Iraq.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-21-04 7:27pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

He he he

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

9-21-04 9:53pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

Oy.

Why do I get the feeling that with each day closer to November we come, these arguments are going to become more and more caustic?

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

9-21-04 10:11pm (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

quote:
Would we have gone to war in Iraq if 9-11 hadn't have happened? No.

You are wrong.


Then why did members of the Bush administration have documents that outlined a the desire to invade Iraq BEFORE 9/11?

Why, also, did we have a Gulf War where we entered Iraq in the early 90's, under the FIRST Bush administration? I mean, there was no 9/11 then, and you can't tell me that a man won't go into office and want to finish what his daddy started in that same office.

MaKK, you seem too stressed to provide the same level of inane propaganda you usually vomit.

Can we get back the money that we spent to finance him and his regime over a decade ago, then?

How do you know that? You don't.


I don't see how, since we've been in Iraq, the threat of terrorism has decreased AT ALL. In fact, all these Yellow and Orange Alerts seem to prove exactly what Kr0n1c was saying.

You don't know this either. You make false assertions.


Right, there's no chance whatsoever of militant fundamentalist Muslims from around the Middle East, and the world, seeing the U.S.' actions as even more of a spit on their shoes and plotting further.

These seem to be a small percentage of the resistance in Iraq, and even Muqtada himself has urged his followers to halt aggressions.

We don't need to occupy a country to catch 20 nutjobs.

Just so everyone knows, Makk likes to pretend that we aren't responsible in any way for any sort of massacres. He doesn't like to read about U.S.-sponsored terrorism in South America, either.

To invade a country that was hardly a threat? Afghanistan itself was also a laughable threat at best. Bin Laden is who masterminded 9/11, and Bin laden is the one we want. How the FUCK does Iraq fit into that? We were attacked by terrorists under the tutelage of Bin Laden. We know he isn't fucking in Iraq, we also fucking know he wasn't in there before we invaded it. WHERE IS HE?

Right, he's responsible for the false assertions our President and his yes-men made for going in there in the first place. If you hire someone to do a job, and that person fucks it up royally and detroys a lot of shit in the process, you are going to be taken to task for hiring him in the first place.

We hired Saddam Hussein to rule Iraq.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-22-04 6:39am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

We have plans to invade a lot of countries. The chance we might invade Iraq over any other country was probably the greatest. Would you prefer the incoming administration to have no plans to deal with other hostile nations?

So your argument (if I understand you correctly) is that Bush wanted to "finish the job" that his dad did not.

You're doing a pretty good job making yourself seem ridiculous so I'll just leave that hanging in the air.

Jane Fonda apologized but John Kerry did not.

Can we get back the money that we spent to finance him and his regime over a decade ago, then?


Money spent means you don't have it anymore and you aren't getting it back.

And you're an expert.

No they don't. Once again I'll let your own arguments do the talking.

What about nations who were soft on terror becoming more tough on terror because they've seen us over throw two terror-soft regimes in a row?

This is why I say that you don't know the answer. And you're obviously biased and not thinking about every aspect of the war.

These seem to be a small percentage of the resistance in Iraq, and even Muqtada himself has urged his followers to halt aggressions.


If they are a small percentage then are you saying there are not many terrorists in Iraq? This seems to be in conflict with your statement that the war in Iraq is creating new terrorists. Hmm.

The "nutjobs" are scaring people away from commerce, police security jobs, and public welfare jobs. Stopping them is directly connected with restoring order in Iraq. And just because you only see a few of them on video doesn't mean there are "oh only a few more, based on my best guess." What are you basing this figure on? Nothing. You are making things up.

We're talking about Iraq.

To invade a country that was hardly a threat?


Your assumption that Iraq was not a threat is false and therefore your arguments based on this assumption are invalid.

The threat was their complicity with terrorist operating in their country. Again you demonstrate you inability to understand the important details of the conflicts we are currently engaged in.

No it wasn't, it was Kaleid Shiek Muhammad. And we caught him.

Iraq was soft on terror, and also sponsored terror. I've never said Iraq planned 9-11.

I understand your frustration. But don't worry, I think he might turn up any day now.. ;)

Right, he's responsible for the false assertions our President and his yes-men made for going in there in the first place.


The intelligence agencies made the assertions, and actually, yes he is responsible for those. He could have done any number of things to clear up the situation. He did not. He is responsible.

I'm assuming you cannot back this up with anything better than your childish assumptions (i.e. Bush's daddy made him invade Iraq, there are a total of 20 terrorists in Iraq..) Nice try though, I'm sure you've totally convinced Spankling.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-22-04 11:04am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

[center][b]Lesson 1:

MaKK_BeNN Logic[/b][/center]

quote:
Would we have gone to war in Iraq if 9-11 hadn't have happened? No.

You are wrong.


Then:

Note the contradiction, but also the way the latter statement was carefully worded as to attempt to convince the naked eye that this is, in fact, NOT a contradiction. Vagueries aside, the contrast is obvious.


What about nations who were soft on terror becoming more tough on terror because they've seen us over throw two terror-soft regimes in a row?


Note that the sarcasm in the beginning paragraph was referring to the possibility that terrorists would galvanize and perhaps fence-sitters would see the U.S. as being even more of an evil than they had originally thought. Note that there is no example of any other nation's policy change as a result of the year-long occupation of Iraq.

This was in response to the statement that the beheaders are a small percentage of the resistance. Note that there was no mention of less terrorists, but that the beheaders themselves are THE small percentage.

Note how he assumes that the "Coalition" forces will be able to eliminate these "nutjobs" so that there will actually be order in Iraq. Also note how his argument is based on the assumption that there was order in Iraq in the first place, and that the order assumed should then be restored. Finally, note that the last few sentences are predicated on the idea that there are more than just a few of the insurgents who like to behead people.

Note the ignorance of the fact that Iraq was an economically poor country, despite its oil wealth, and its ability to defend itself militarily against an invasion was laughable.

Note that this is referring to a complicity that was never actually proven, nor were many of the reasons cited for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Note how he fails to mention just why, then, the U.S. is actually still hunting tirelessly for bin Laden.

Note how the usage of "soft on terror" comes directly from the mouths of several Republican leaders, and how the definition of such is vague at best. Also take note of the missing explanation as to why invading Iraq was more important than catching Osama bin Laden.

Note how he claims that Saddam Hussein is responsible for the U.S. intelligence agencies' possibly massive errors, but does not say how.

Note the ignorance of the fact that the Reagan administration in the 80's chose to side with Iraq in the Iran/Iraq conflict. Note that although Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq before the U.S. became involved in the support of Iraq, the U.S. for all intensive purposes "renewed his contract". Not also that MaKK_BeNN does not acknowledge the fact that Mr. Bush could possibly have any animosity toward the man who allegedly tried to have his father assassinated.

End Study

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-22-04 3:11pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

I've changed my mind.

I'm voting for my cat.

---
Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

9-22-04 3:32pm (new)
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Kr0n1c
Product of The California School System

Member Rated:

You know what I think is funny? The fact that Bush didn't even serve in Vietnam.

As for the other quotes and responses, I think MickeyG pretty much handed you a fat can of OWNAGE.

---
Get Your War On

9-22-04 6:59pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

9-22-04 8:00pm (new)
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possums
FERN DESTROYER

Member Rated:

quote:
I've changed my mind.

I'm voting for my cat.


I thought your cat WAS Ronnie James Dio.

9-22-04 8:07pm (new)
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Zaster
Wait for it...

Member Rated:

Ronnie James Dio would make an awesome president, if only he could see over the podium.

---
I was gonna send a robot back in time, but I got high.

9-22-04 8:20pm (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

quote:
Would we have gone to war in Iraq if 9-11 hadn't have happened? No.

You are wrong.


True.

Also true.

It's not a contradiction. We have plans to invade all sorts of countries. We are probably sitting on plans to invade Iran and North Korea. That doesn't mean we're going to, it means we're prepared.

The fact we have plans for war isn't the cause of the war. You are mistaken in your "discovery".

Note that the sarcasm in the beginning paragraph was referring to the possibility that terrorists would galvanize and perhaps fence-sitters would see the U.S. as being even more of an evil than they had originally thought. Note that there is no example of any other nation's policy change as a result of the year-long occupation of Iraq.


Note MikeyG is 100% wrong. Note the change in policy of Lybia as a direct result of the Iraq war. But wait, Mikey just said:

How could this be? Oh yes and Saudi Arabia's policies changed. B-b-but wait Mikey just said:

Huh, that's strange. Oh yeah Syria stopped harbouring a bunch of groups. But wait Mikey said:

Huh that's odd.

This was in response to the statement that the beheaders are a small percentage of the resistance.


Yes Mikey that's right, the five people who appear in the video are a much smaller percentage of the actual resistance. Man, nice deduction. ;)

Note how he assumes that the "Coalition" forces will be able to eliminate these "nutjobs" so that there will actually be order in Iraq.


Leaving would be much worse than staying. Those are the most powerful people in the country after us, those are the people that would take over. Period. End of story. We must stay. We must fight those people.

There was more order in Iraq before the war. Are you arguing there wasn't? Well run dictatorships are big on law and order.

Read the parts of the Koran the jihadist base their actions on, specifically the parts that talk about beheading enemies with a sword.

Note the ignorance of the fact that Iraq was an economically poor country, despite its oil wealth, and its ability to defend itself militarily against an invasion was laughable.


The ability to defend against a military invasion is not the measure of how threatening a country's actions (or inactions) are. You are completely ill equipped to participate in this discussion.

Note that this is referring to a complicity that was never actually proven, nor were many of the reasons cited for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.


You're right man, Saddam Hussein was a good guy! lol! ;)

Note how he fails to mention just why, then, the U.S. is actually still hunting tirelessly for bin Laden.


I didn't fail to mention anything. You said Osama was being hunted because he planned 9-11. He didn't plan 9-11. You're the one who is wrong.

Bin Laden funded the operations and provided logistical support. You said he planned the attacks. he did not.

If there's anything else you don't know and want to ask me, go ahead! Don't be embarrased! ;)

Note how the usage of "soft on terror" comes directly from the mouths of several Republican leaders, and how the definition of such is vague at best.


It's an accurate description of the Hussein regime. He defintely was a terror platform against Israel, he defintely terrorized the Kurds, he definitely terrorized the regions. You are on the wrong side of this debate. Fortunately you are also a moron.

Also note no one, including me, ever said "we are invading Iraq to catch Osama bin Laden."

Mikey G Logic: Just say some shit.

Note how he claims that Saddam Hussein is responsible for the U.S. intelligence agencies' possibly massive errors, but does not say how.


Saddam could have been 100% cooperative with inspectors. He was not. Saddam at best led the world to believe he was more dangerous than he was, perhaps to thwart an invasion. It's his fault.

Next question! ;)

Note the ignorance of the fact that the Reagan administration in the 80's chose to side with Iraq in the Iran/Iraq conflict.


We just had a long discussion about this. I posted for several pages on it. You are wrong again.

What are you talking about and how does it relate to the discussion? Why is me failing to bring up unrelated facts proof of "my logic" which is "so wrong"?

"Not" also that Mikey is basically saying we must suppose the war might have happened simply because Saddam tried to kill Bush Sr.

By the way is trying to kill a former U.S. president not "being soft on terror"? ;)

End study!

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-22-04 8:20pm (new)
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Kr0n1c
Product of The California School System

Member Rated:

quote:

quote:
Would we have gone to war in Iraq if 9-11 hadn't have happened? No.

You are wrong.


True.


Paul O'Niell (George Bush's Treasury Secretary) seems to think other wise.

“From the very beginning, there was a conviction, that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,” says O’Neill, who adds that going after Saddam was topic "A" 10 days after the inauguration - eight months before Sept. 11.

“From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime,” says Suskind. “Day one, these things were laid and sealed.”

As treasury secretary, O'Neill was a permanent member of the National Security Council. He says in the book he was surprised at the meeting that questions such as "Why Saddam?" and "Why now?" were never asked.

"It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying ‘Go find me a way to do this,’" says O’Neill. “For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap.”

And that came up at this first meeting, says O’Neill, who adds that the discussion of Iraq continued at the next National Security Council meeting two days later.

He got briefing materials under this cover sheet. “There are memos. One of them marked, secret, says, ‘Plan for post-Saddam Iraq,’" adds Suskind, who says that they discussed an occupation of Iraq in January and February of 2001.

This is taken from a CBS interview with Paul O'Niell

Heres the link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml

200 billion dollars to pay for a war based on false allegations is not money well spent. It's money wasted. The money could have been put to better use fighting the war on terror (the war in Iraq is not part of the war on terror)or even helping with the problems here in the US. Especially when unemployment is at the height it is today. And what resources of Saddam's are you speaking of? The weapons of mass destruction (don't exist)? Give me some examples of Saddam's resources.

How do you know this? Show some proof.

Note that this is referring to a complicity that was never actually proven, nor were many of the reasons cited for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.


You're right man, Saddam Hussein was a good guy! lol! ;)

No where in MikeyG's statement did he say Saddam Hussein was a good guy. Your putting words in his mouth.

Funding the attacks and providing logistics makes him just as bad. Osama bin Laden is more of a threat to America than Saddam ever was.;)

---
Get Your War On

9-22-04 11:32pm (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

Note that as discussed in previous posts, it has been established that not everyone in a major religion takes their doctrines literally. If this were so, Christians would still be stoning each other to death. The fact that a percentage of them do does not blanket the rest of the jihadists under this assumption. Furthermore, the context in which the beheadings take place is a hostage situation, and is used as a method of forcing the opposing party to listen to their demands. Although outright evil, the beheadings are not done based solely on principles in the Koran. It is a method of violently and disturbingly killing a hostage.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-23-04 8:19am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

200 billion dollars to pay for a war based on false allegations is not money well spent.


We haven't spent 200 billion on the war. Get your facts straight. You're pulling quotes from an anti-Bush book and you're just making up figures. You're at least 100 billion off.

At it's "height"? It's the same as it was during the Clinton administration when the economy was supposedly so good. How are you going to use that money to fight unemployment? It's companies that make jobs, not the government.

You're right, I'm sure he had no revenue from the oil fields. All those palaces are just natural rock outcroppings that happen to be shaped like palaces.

How do you know this? Show some proof.


There's a whole part of the defense department that does nothingbut draw up and update war plans for other countries. It's not my fault you're ignorant of this.

Funding the attacks and providing logistics makes him just as bad. Osama bin Laden is more of a threat to America than Saddam ever was.;)


This isn't a zero sum terror game. We aren't only going after what you (in your very scientific study) think is "the most dangerous man". There's good argument that Saddam Hussein was more dangerous. And he wasn't that different from Osama, he did provide a base for the logistics or terror planning and he funded many terrorist acts.

Note that as discussed in previous posts, it has been established that not everyone in a major religion takes their doctrines literally.


Note that I referred to Jihadist, who very much are taking things literally. Do you know what Jidahist believe? Do you know what parts of the Koran they base their actions on? Mikey do some research! I'm not talking about everyday Muslims, I'm talking about Jihadists.

Why don't you run over to them and offer your assistance, since we're so wrong about these gentle Jihadists, I'm sure they would put that head on your shoulders to good use! ;)

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

9-23-04 8:33am (new)
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