Oh, I see now. Iraq was supposed to be this way at this stage! It's all OK!

Serious, serious thickness.

---
What others say about boorite!

I didn't say that. I don't think you can blame the chaos on our military presence, or suppose it will get better if we leave, though. Pinpointing one small moment in which things are bad and supposing it will be like that forever and blaming it on the powers that be is thick if you ask me. It'd be like on 9-11 saying "when Clinton was president, no towers were falling over, we need to replace the president because never before have towers fallen over under any other president."

The insurgents are doing to attacking, our military is doing the defending. Pretty thick of you to not understand such a simplistic idea.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

And this was the Pentagon's guy for how long? how much taxpayer money did they just agree to stop giving this guy every month?

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

You'd think he'd be pulling out his pockets then, to try to get more sympathy, instead of holding up a broken picture frame.

You're right, with the possibility of any informant turning against us, we should either 1) see into the future to make sure they won't betray us or 2) stop paying all informants. Great military strategy Spankling!

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

These are the best ideas you have?

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/

Great link. I'm always happy to see Rumsfeld at a loss for words.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

If you look at his quotes he actually used very clever wording to avoid saying that Iraq was an imminent threat (probably at the advice of lawyers).

He says the potential for Iraq having nuclear weapons is argued to be 5 to 7 years away, and he is not so sure that the threat might not be more imminent, suggesting that the 5-7 year assessment (which isn't in question) is the degree of imminence.

He says in the second quote that Iraq is the most immediate threat that he knows about to the secuirty of America. He is catagorizing Iraq as the greatest threat from another government that he knows of.

I guess they figure they play this clip with Rumsfield on the web site and if you don't like him you'll go "Ah ha! He's lying right there!", but he's really not, not that it matters because only people who jack off to the picture of Rumsfield shaking hands with Saddam Hussein care enough about hating him to give it a second thought. Your hands are a little sticky today, I noticed, Mikey.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I knew it wouldn't be long before Rumsfeld's lackey (MaKKey?) would try to find some way to unwind the web that hath been woven.

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

He did come close to saying Iraq was an imminent threat, but didn't. Would you like me to turn off the part of my brain that processes language so that I might agree with you? Also he isn't so much "speechless" in this clip as "cut off by fading to black before he can answer".

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

What can he say, MaKK? He faded to black before he could call up any spin tactics.

His first statement in the clip is that he never used the phrase. Then they present to him a statement HE MADE where he used that EXACT phrase.

What's the argument?

---
The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

No they don't. He says he never used the term "imminent threat" to describe Iraq. Then they present him with the quote where he says he would not be so certain that a nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent. And the reporter nervously laughs "well it's close to imminent." Close, but not the same thing.

Then in the second quote he says "no terror state poses a greater or more immediate threat.." He didn't say Saddam was an imminent threat, he said of the other terror states the threat he poses is the most immediate. None of this is the equivalent of saying "Iraq is an imminent threat."

He said perhaps the nuclear threat is more urgent than a 5-7 year estimate, and of the terror states he feels Saddam's Iraq was the most urgent threat. Woooo-OOO-oo! They really nailed him.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

In what universe does "immediate threat" not mean something as bad or worse than "imminent threat?"

The sentence "No terror state poses a greater or more immediate threat." sounds to me like they are planning to attack us any day now. It doesn't sound like that to you?

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

No it sounds like that of all the terror states, Iraq was the most likely to be able and act on harming us the soonest.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Considering how pitifully armed Iraq was, you don't have much to worry about, then.

So the drugs are really good in your universe, then?

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

North Korea is pretty well armed but as far as I know they haven't had a meaningful act of aggression since the First Korean War. It's more about intent than it is capabilities, becuase as pitiful as Iraq's military was, it was light years ahead of Afghanistan. I don't think anyone in the government arguing for the war ever claimed that Iraq was about to parachute its troops onto American soil.

It's about the threat of terrorism, not just Al-Qaeda, but state-sponsored or enabled terrorism. I can only assume intelligent people are playing dumb when they say "oh yeah, Iraq's army was so tough, they could have totally attacked us" in sarcasm. I don't care how many people are upset, let's get a working government we can at least address with security issues in Iraq, surely you can see of how that is of benefit. The shiites being enemies of the U.S. is absolutely nothing new, they are just becoming more brave. I recall a time when the Democrats were quaking in their boots about criticizing the government, that doesn't mean they suddenly found a reason to hate the president. Excuse me if I prefer to have built in Iraq a political system where the factions which are at odds can have their issues addressed through the government and public discourse instead of with roadside bombs.

So the drugs are really good in your universe, then?

---

That's based on exactly, what he says, in the quote. Are you saying that I'm insane for pointing that out, or for believing it? As far as I know Iraq was the state-sponsor of terror which had most recently invaded another country, so I'd have to agree with that.

I think I've learned that when people are no longer responding with arguments, but childish attacks, that I have won, so thank you for conceding defeat. If you'd like to clarify what you mean I'm willing to listen. But a reporter asking Rumsfield if he, for real, ever said Iraq was an imminent threat, and then bringing up quotes in which he says the words imminent threat, but not specifically saying Iraq is an imminent threat, is asinine.

Reporter: So you never said Iraq was an imminent threat.

Rumsfield: No I didn't say Iraq was an imminent threat.

Reporter: Ah ha! You just said the words "imminent threat"!

Rumsfield: ...

Reporter: Speechless, eh?

Rumsfield: I was saying-

Reporter: You have to admit it's pretty close to saying it.

Rumsfield: ...

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

So the drugs are really good in your universe, then?

---

That's based on exactly, what he says, in the quote. Are you saying that I'm insane for pointing that out, or for believing it? As far as I know Iraq was the state-sponsor of terror which had most recently invaded another country, so I'd have to agree with that.

I think I've learned that when people are no longer responding with arguments, but childish attacks, that I have won, so thank you for conceding defeat.

---

Hardly. I have merely given up on debating with logically, because it is pointless. You simply refuse to condede the point when anyone has you in the vicegrips of logic. It is as if you were living in another universe where black is white and "imminent" is nothing at all like "immediate."

However, I can't help but point out those times when you go beyond mere denial of the truth to truly bizzare statements.

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

But he said the threat is "more immediate", implying that all of the terror states were a pressing matter. He put it in the context of other terror states, it's right there in the quote. I wasn't arguing the difference between the words "imminent" and "immediate", I'm saying that what you are suggesting he said, he didn't say. He said if you listed all of the terror states into the order he thought represented which state was the most threatening, he puts Iraq on the top of the list. He says this clearly, in the quote, with respect to other terror states. It's right there in the quote:

"..no terror state poses a greater or more immediate threat.."

You might as well just go through every taping of him speaking and pick out any time he says the word "immediate".

Reporter: "Ah ha! You said immediate again mister Rumsfield."

Rumsfield: "Well that's-"

Reporter: "Speechless again huh?"

Rumsfield: "Actually-"

(Fade to black)

(Digitize clip and upload to moveon.org)

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I called him an idiot because he said being physically tortured and repressed for years and years was better than being stripped by a few corrupt prison guards. I didn't just call all Iraqis idiots and then end my sentence, as you suggest with your selective quoting.

---

You've said in more than a few posts that Saddam's brutality towards his own people in the past is much worse than the abuses coalition soldiers have committed. And lately, every idiot Bush apologist like yourself has came out of the woodwork proclaiming the same bullshit. Way to downplay it, morons.

Yes, we know Saddam killed lots of his own people. Yes, we know Saddam ran a brutal regime. You Bush apologists aren't telling us anything new.

The simple fact remains that what Saddam did DOES NOT MATTER in this case because all we've heard in the last year and half is this song and dance :

"We're going to liberate the Iraqi people"

Yet, the soldiers abuse those that they are supposed to "liberate". That reeks of hypocrisy. And before you say that those who were held were probably terrorists and under suspicion of doing bad stuff and deserved it anyways...it still doesn't make it right. We're suopposed to be the great leaders of freedom in the world, not acting like the second coming of the Nazis. And if these prisoners were so dangerous, then why were 450 of them just released from Abu Ghraib yesterday?

---
Think classy, you'll be classy.

I'm not apologizing, I'm being reasonable. Being stripped in a prison isn't even on the same level as brutalizing an entire population, especially when the abuse was against the U.S. policy.

quote:

---

The simple fact remains that what Saddam did DOES NOT MATTER in this case because all we've heard in the last year and half is this song and dance :

"We're going to liberate the Iraqi people"

Yet, the soldiers abuse those that they are supposed to "liberate". That reeks of hypocrisy.

---

The people weren't imprisoned for no reason.

I didn't say it did, but arresting suspects doesn't mean we haven't liberated a people.

The point of interrogation is to find out if the prisoners were up to something. If we knew that they were guilty of something, we wouldn't need to interrogate them. If we just brushed this under the rug or announced it was official policy, maybe you could consider comparing us to the Nazis. Since we're trying to prosecute and punish those that did it -in the middle of a war, at that- I don't know how you could make such a claim.

Unless you just didn't like America to begin with. That's my guess.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Regardless of the context, I think you would have to agree that "no terror state poses a greater or more immediate threat" says, on it's face that we are immediately threatened.

That is, there is an immediate threat to us.

Get it?

---
...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

No, it says that of all the terror states, Iraq is the MOST urgent threat, not that Iraq is an urgent threat. It does imply that all the terror states are pressing threats. In any event it's not an argument over what was implied, it's about what was said, and the statement about imminence was put in the context of other terror states. Period. Get it?

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I'm not apologizing, I'm being reasonable. Being stripped in a prison isn't even on the same level as brutalizing an entire population, especially when the abuse was against the U.S. policy.

---

And like I said before, it doesn't matter what level Saddam's brutality was on. Once again, you miss the point and downplay what those soldiers did.

The point of interrogation is to find out if the prisoners were up to something. If we knew that they were guilty of something, we wouldn't need to interrogate them.

---

Oh, so because it's now "interrogation", that makes abusing prisoners right.

They did try to brush this under the rug, since these abuses happened at the end of last year and were reported by the Red Cross in February. And what about the accused soldiers who have come forward and said that their superiors ordered that kind of treatment on prisoners?

That's right, I hate the country I live in because I question things. Stop acting like a baiting troll, Makk.

---
Think classy, you'll be classy.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
- Thomas Jefferson

White House guilty of breaking propaganda law

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet