Just FYI for those interested - a quick bio on Cheney.

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"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

It's been done. Pay attention.

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I have been paying attention and I haven't seen it proved. This is another side effect of you not reading the articles you post, Spankling.

Why US?

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Because if we're spending American tax dollars to rebuild a country, it might as well be put back into our own economy.

Is it a news flash that someone in Washington is well connected with industry, or that there is a short list of companies with the ability to handle contracts that Halliburton can? It's nice to see you have to go all the way to rotten.com to get a biography you feel is "unbiased" enough, Spankling. For someone who likes to whack off to pictures of dead bodies you sure take an odd stance on the war. In any event, Halliburton has consistently been getting government contracts, even during the Clinton years, so I don't quite udnerstand the cause and effect you are saying exists.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I think the question, Makk, is this:

As the Bush Administration has failed to provide sufficient justification for the war in Iraq, and indeed lied about the reasons for doing so, we must look elsewhere for their true motivation. Is it possible that the war was started to benefit their friends and contributors in the military-industrial complex?

My own opinion is thus: I wouldn't put it past them, but I doubt it was the primary reason. More of a fringe benefit as far as they are concerned.

It is possible that the reason the Administration's attitude toward the U.N. during the runup to war was for precicely this reason: Encourage a lack of participation among our allies so that we have a justification not to "share the wealth" of reconstruction contracts. It's possible, but again, I don't think it is the primary motivation. I think the NeoCons were more intent on weakening the U.N. role in this situation -- daring the U.N. not to support us and then going in anyway, rendering them essentilly toothless. One more blow against U.N. hegemony.

If this was their strategy, it was brilliantly executed, if hopelessly shortsighted.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

No they didn't. They used the same intelligence the past administration had.

The U.N. rendered itself toothless by not taking care of Saddam Hussein. Its own sanctions were a farce and easily exploited.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

No they didn't. They used the same intelligence the past administration had.

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Interesting that the Bush Administration thought that the intelligence was justification for war and the previous administration didn't. Interesting that the intelligence turned out to be faulty. Could it be that the previous administration was smarter and more discerning? Could it be that the current administration accepted the faulty intelligence without question because it conveniently fit in with their motives and world view? Hmmmmm!!!!

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

Makk did say:

Correct.

How about the fact that under Cheney, Halliburton did business with Saddam for 5 years. Also, they were fined for doing business with Libya. Cheney walked out of Halliburton with $34 mil, straight into the White House, where he more or less immediately began planning and prosecuting a war against his former valued customer Saddam, a war by which Halliburton is profiting handsomely, often by grossly overcharging us, the taxpayers.

No, that doesn't sound crooked at all.

Damn, even chimps know when they're being cheated.

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What others say about boorite!

Thank you, boorite.

Now, as for the U.N., we shouldn't forget that the U.S. has quite a history of disregarding the U.N. and international law.

I seem to remember reading a whole shitload of reports on how Kennedy, during his raging boner for Fidel Castro, disregarded rulings of the World Court and/or the opinion of the Security Council.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

9-11 changed a lot of people's opinions about threats to our national secuirty.

So an administration is supposed to just guess when it thinks it has bad intelligence? Maybe they should sneak out and do a little spying on their own.

The difference in how the intelligence was perceived was changed by 9-11. There's a two fold part of this, the administration trying to do it, and the public (and, you know, Congress, this whole other branch of government) going along with it. Hmmmmm!!!!

We used to do business with Saddam also. You don't give me a time frame on this so I can only assume it was before the Kuwait invasion. Also, do you even know what services Halliburton provides? Can you detail what wervices were provided in this incident, or in other incidents you say are quesitonable?

quote:

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Also, they were fined for doing business with Libya. Cheney walked out of Halliburton with $34 mil, straight into the White House, where he more or less immediately began planning and prosecuting a war against his former valued customer Saddam, a war by which Halliburton is profiting handsomely, often by grossly overcharging us, the taxpayers.

No, that doesn't sound crooked at all.

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Why would he need to work for them to do this if he already got paid? If he did plan it, did he go back in time after the "payoff" to convince Saddam to invade Kuwait so we'd have a context for the invasion? Did he plan 9-11 to sway public opinion about the need to take out Saddam? Did he just plain go into Congress with a gun to get them to get the war approved?

You can complain all you want, but we still live in a democracy, and it seems like convenient scapegoating to say Cheney secretly plotted the whole war, rather than recognizing the whole democractic aparatus, from the President, to the Congress, to the public, to the media, played a hand in initiating this war.

So we're not giving out aid, advancing other nations' economies, and not keeping the peace?

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Correct.

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I have a different view of the effect the United States has on the world economy and on regional peaces.

I wonder how much money we loan out to nations. I wonder how many places where our troops are stationed would fall into war without our presence. I wonder if you have the slightest idea what you are talking about, or are just lying through your teeth.

Why don't you answer any of the other four questions I left you with?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Because the questions are dumb. You can answer them yourself.

You wonder how much money the US "loans out" to other countries. The answer depends on what you're talking about.

1. "Loans out" in what form?

2. Who loans it, and why?

3. What effect does this "aid" appear to have on said countries?

It seems to me you've assumed that there's some grand amount of US largesse being shoveled out somewhere, and that it has a salutary effect on the persons affected. Then you ask if I know what I'm talking about or am lying through my teeth. Well, do you know what you're talking about, or are you just making stuff up? Do you even know enough to frame your questions intelligibly?

Not so far.

As for the US's "peacekeeping" mission in Iraq: That's Orwellian to within very strict tolerances. Big Brother done got you man.

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What others say about boorite!

So you're saying US aid and loans don't exist? Give me a break. And what about economic development? Does that not exist either? You kind of rushed right passed that one and went straight to needling me on pointless specifics. Funny that.

So if we're not currently peacekeeping in Iraq, what are we doing? That seems to be all our military engagements are based on. What are we doing in North Korea? What would happen if we left? Why do we still have troops in Bosnia? What was the intent of Somalia?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

In case you really aren't just playing dumb, here's a good place to start boorite: http://www.usaid.gov/about/resources/

What do you mean when you ask how much aid actually reaches the people? Do you know how much welfare money which is allocated actually reaches the people? Is that a reason to stop? Didn't you just say in regards to giving in to "al-Qaeda's demands" that we should build up the Arab people? Didn't I ask by what mechanism you would do that? Don't you in your last post suggest that aid serves no purpose? Well, if we are to build up the Arab people (after we completely vacate our military, all our embassies, and close down all our business investments) how are we going to do that?

Why don't you instead of being distracting answer my question about exactly what services Halliburton was supplying in the incidences you mentioned that were so objectionable. Or any point I brought up about it causing more harm than good to pull our military back to our borders? Or any point about trying to negotiate with al-Qaeda being based on the flawed logic that they want to live in peace with us?

Or the point that Dick Cheney only has one real duty to play in government as Vice President, which is to break a tie in Congress, yet somehow you shoulder all of the blame of the war starting on him because he worked for a company which continues to get government contracts like it did before Cheney was Vice President? Any of those points worth discussing?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

The things you attribute to me are things I haven't said. Therefore I have no response to them.

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What others say about boorite!

It's the European elections next week! How I pity you Americans. You're missing all the fun! ;)

Maybe because Cheney is the smart one and Bush is a sock puppet?

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.

Well I was fair enough to answer your questions regarding aid, as it applies to your stated perception of America. Why don't you answer my question regarding Halluburton's services, as it applies to your stated perception of them? Or answer the question in regards to Cheney's amazing Vice President power as it pertains to your insinuation of backdoor doings?

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Attacks by Kerry-sympathizers in Iraq do not detract from the formation of an interim government

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

I didn't notice your answering those questions.

As for Cheney and Halliburton, I suppose we could go into infinite detail, but I'll decline. Just the facts presented should arouse your suspicion and skepticism of the Bush Administration, at the very least, but no, somehow you are able to see it all as innocent. To me, it seems you're in the grip of some cultlike worship of Washington power, and so far, no amount of detail, discussion, citation, or analysis is able to put a dent in it. You are a True Believer.

Plus you misquote me and your other interlocutors all the time. A give and take with you is impossible, as I spend most of the time saying, I did not say that. And the more detail we go into, the more you have to twist and distort, and the more time is required to say no, I did not say that. That's how these threads stretch to a million miles, and you love it that way because you're a troll.

I think it's enough to say you seem to see nothing wrong with Cheney and Halliburton doing umpty-million in business with the monster Hussein, then profiteering off of crushing him. And you seem to see nothing wrong with their illegal business dealings with Libya, for which they were criminally charged and fined. They pled guilty.

Here's the way it was written up in the WashPost, July 11, 2002:

But I'm sure that doesn't seem crooked to you. I mean, you could have Googled "halliburton libya fined" and got that info. You didn't because you're not interested. You're trolling. You just want to bait us into endless bullshit arguments.

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What others say about boorite!

Yes, what he said.

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What others say about boorite!

I gave up. I got sick and tired of pointing out things that are glaringly obvious only to be completely misquoted.

You can only say "That's not what I said" so many times before your eyeballs bleed. MaKK makes my pee-hole hurt, and it's not the usual herpes-hurt.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

You ask for a breakdown of all aids and loans, as if they don't exist. I posted a resource where you can clearly find out they do. You ask how much aid actually reaches the populations, as if not all of it reaching the intended populations would be good cause to not give out aid or loans.

You also completely ignore the fact that America drives so much of the global economy.

Infinite detail? Just tell me how the Vice President, with a total of one real power, could orchestrate the war.

Tell me why it's suspicious today that Halliburton gets government contracts, but it wasn't suspicious before Cheney was Vice President.

Tell me exactly what Halliburton does that gives you reason to vilify it.

That's not infinite detail, those are reasonable questions. Asking for a breakdown of all aid and loans given to all countries and then to analyze how effectively it is dispursed would be going into too much detail. Asking common sense questions like these are 100% relevant.

How did Cheney orchestrate the war as Vice President? That's all I'm asking.

You can correct anything that I've asked, but you don't. I do think I've read your statements about Cheney and Halliburton pretty well, and I just ask for some of these lauded "facts" you keep brining up. Not how much money Cheney made, not how much his pension was, but exactly what Cheney did to orchestrate the war as you suggest, how he is profitting of it today, and exactly why Halliburton's services are so deplorable.

I asked you to clarify at what point in time these dealings happened. Since you haven't answered I still can only assume it was pre-Kuwati occupation, when Saddam wasn't our mortal enemy. I didn't know it was a news flash that we had dealt with Saddam Hussein before this.

I could think of a bunch of companies that have gotten fined. It doesn't mean they orchestrated the Iraq War. They weren't even selling Lybia weapons according to the article you posted, it was for oil technology.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

Cheney was CEO of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, (and was still CEO while serving as head of candidate GWB's VP search committee).

Iraq was repulsed from Kuwait in 1990-91.

1995-2000 comes after 1990-91.

Makk, I thought you might have known such facts, being such a Cheney fan. Also, I have mentioned the dates of Cheney's tenure here in messages to which you have responded directly. This is what I mean when I say it is useless to give you information.

Here is another example of what I mean. You say:

The excerpt I quoted, which was staring you in the face at the time you wrote this, said that the equipment was "six pulse neutron generators"-- "oil drilling equipment which could be used to detonate nuclear weapons." That is to say, it was prohibited weapons technology. Halliburton shipped them "through Italy to Libya," indicating that they maybe had some idea that selling pulse neutron generators to Libya was illegal.

They were criminally charged, and they pled guilty.

This is what I mean when I say it is useless to give you information.

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What others say about boorite!

Because Halliburton got the largest contract for the rebuilding of Iraq, and didn't have any competition to deal with. It was handed to KBR on a silver platter. Whether Halliburton had contracts under previous administrations is irrelevant.

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Think classy, you'll be classy.

There is also this:

We have. We are. How about sneaking prohibited weapons technology through Italy to Libya? That's one thing.

Or selling prohibited technology to the monster Hussein.

Or profiteering off the war. Read any news lately? Let's see how far back we need to go for... ah yes, it's in today's news. Something about a smoking e-mail saying Cheney "coordinated" Halliburton's no-bid contract in Iraq. Maybe he did; maybe he didn't. You can find many articles about it with the sophisticated search technique of typing "halliburton and criminal" into Yahoo News.

You may see nothing suspicious in Halliburton, but the Pentagon (whom I thought you worshipped) sure does. Didn't you know they withheld $300 mil in payments from Halliburton for gouging us in Iraq? And now their wholly-owned subsidiary KBR is under criminal investigation? This came out in February.

Let me say that again: The Pentagon has launched a criminal probe into Halliburton's activities in Iraq.

Tell us again how there is no cause for suspicion here.

I'm sure you'll respond again by asking why anyone would vilify Halliburton. Well, don't ask me. Ask the fucking Pentagon. Ask the Department of Justice.

As for the rest of your "questions," they don't make much sense to me. More putting words in my mouth for the sake of trolling.

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What others say about boorite!

quote:

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Cheney was CEO of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, (and was still CEO while serving as head of candidate GWB's VP search committee).

Iraq was repulsed from Kuwait in 1990-91.

1995-2000 comes after 1990-91.

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You seem to have a lot of information about the Lybia dealings (which are not relevant to my question anout how exactly Halliburton planned with war through Cheney). Were these Iraqi dealing in violations of sanctions? If so, were we selling them WMDs? What exactly are the details?

It's useless to give me useless information. How does any of this apply to my questions about 1) how Halliburton orchestrated the war and 2) how Cheney, as Vice President, orchestrated the war or 3) how Cheney profitted by this

quote:

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Here is another example of what I mean. You say:

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quote:

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The excerpt I quoted, which was staring you in the face at the time you wrote this, said that the equipment was "six pulse neutron generators"-- "oil drilling equipment which could be used to detonate nuclear weapons." That is to say, it was prohibited weapons technology. Halliburton shipped them "through Italy to Libya," indicating that they maybe had some idea that selling pulse neutron generators to Libya was illegal.

They were criminally charged, and they pled guilty.

This is what I mean when I say it is useless to give you information.

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What they were sold was for oil technology. It could only be dual use if they already had a nuclear bomb. If we tried to invade Lybia because of this oil technology we sold them, then yes I would say this is relevant information. Otherwise it's just one of these "infinite details" you seem to detest so much.

Yes, it's useless to give me useless information. The only relevant information is the details of Halliburton's services in the time frame you established. You have yet to cite a source or specific information on this.

Because Halliburton got the largest contract for the rebuilding of Iraq, and didn't have any competition to deal with. It was handed to KBR on a silver platter. Whether Halliburton had contracts under previous administrations is irrelevant.

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It is relevant because you are suggesting that Cheney orchestrated this (somehow). Halliburton also received no-contest contracts under Clinton, before Cheney was Vice President. Unless Cheney has a time machine (and Constitutional powers that I am not aware of) I don't think he was orchestrated those contracts.

quote:

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quote:

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There is also this:

Tell me exactly what Halliburton does that gives you reason to vilify it.

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We have. We are. How about sneaking prohibited weapons technology through Italy to Libya? That's one thing.

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We didn't invade Lybia because of what Halliburton sold them, and they were fined and plead guilty for what they did, like you said. That doesn't explain how they (somehow) orchestrated the Iraq war.

You have yet to give me any details on this. I don't know what you are talking about. The only article you posted was in regards to a piece of oil technology sold to Lybia and that insidious Italy.

Just because Halliburton provides reconstruction services doesn't mean that they orchestrated the war. Getting hits by typing in "halliburton and criminal" into Yahoo doesn't mean they orchestrated the war. You haven't posted anything concrete from this email that explain how Halliburton orchestrated the war.

I didn't say there isn't anything suspicious about them. The process for going to war is pretty transparent, and no where along the way would the all-powerful hand of Cheney been able to influence it unless there was a tied vote in the Senate. I doubt we would have even gone to war without 9-11. I don't know how you could demonstrate that Halliburton coordinated the American government's call to war, much less suggest that they coordinated 9-11.

So you don't like their business. I get it. That doesn't mean they orchestrated the Iraq War.

quote:

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Let me say that again: The Pentagon has launched a criminal probe into Halliburton's activities in Iraq.

Tell us again how there is no cause for suspicion here.

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Halliburton allegedly overcharging for services doesn't mean they orchestrated the Iraq war.

quote:

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I'm sure you'll respond again by asking why anyone would vilify Halliburton. Well, don't ask me. Ask the fucking Pentagon. Ask the Department of Justice.

As for the rest of your "questions," they don't make much sense to me. More putting words in my mouth for the sake of trolling.

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Asking how in the hell Cheney (who is your stated "point man" for the Iraq war orchestration) actually had the power to get war declared doesn't make sense?

I'll try again:

Boorite, answer me this question, how did Cheney manage to orchestrate the war in Iraq?

And also answer how he could further profit from Halliburton, if what you suggest is true.

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Vote Jeb Bush 2008

No, I'm not Boorite, but I'll answer this question once again.

Because Cheney is the brains of the outfit and Bush is a sock puppet.

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...Trot and Cap'n Bill were free from anxiety and care. Button-Bright never worried about anything. The Scarecrow, not being able to sleep, looked out of the window and tried to count the stars.