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Vex_Blackheart
Junior Comic Technician

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You think that's cake yer eating?

Hey, hey!

Q:Why can't you eat soup in the Matrix?
A:Because there is no spoon!

5-23-03 9:36am (new)
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Bargaintuan
Don't eat any wooden nickels.

Member Rated:

You think that's a reply your posting?

---
Life is a lot like getting mugged; you get your kicks, you take your punches, and when it's over, someone else gets your cash.

5-23-03 7:50pm (new)
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TheBlairZip
Makes a Great Meal

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I think I've wasted 2 hours of my life reading this thread.

---
If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have no luck at all. D'OH!

5-23-03 9:32pm (new)
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Devin
Comic Overlord

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I suppose you'd do it like this: Pff.

5-23-03 10:03pm (new)
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TheGovernor
Talentless Hack

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You know the best thing about the Matrix Reloaded was the Trailer for Terminator 3, I really should have just left after that.
Anyway the problem with reloaded was more that it felt like they’d filmed a load of action set pieces and just cobbled them together, rather than construct a coherent film. Sadly I fear the matrix has become a victim of its own success, and that someone at Warner decided that the action sequences should take precedence over the plot. Characters were added, and never expanded upon, The sex scene was woeful and unnecessary, even that French guy seemed to be added only to allow another chance for neo to kick ass, And then the wachowskis had an afterthought "Shit, we've forgotten to include all that social commentary we've been trying to subtlety inject about the human condition" and so in the end we get the architect babbling on about systems and control, and what have you. I could go on, but cant really be arsed, Basically it was crap, not because it didn’t look good, hell they spent enough money, but because they didn’t balance the big-budget action with the plot, and ended up with a confusing mess. Lets just hope that this is their "Back to the Future 2", and that they can come to their senses for the third instalment.

5-24-03 10:18am (new)
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Brad
Feature Creep

Member Rated:

So then we all finally agree that Matrix Reloaded sucked then. Good good.

---
www.bradsucks.net

5-24-03 4:03pm (new)
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dommiel84
Member - Tobor Fan Club

Member Rated:

umm, you know I love you in a deep, sexual way Brad but I don't think we agreed...

---
Scratch and sniff porn isn't as good as I'd hoped

5-24-03 4:48pm (new)
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Chi_The_Cynic
Comoedus Cynicalis

Member Rated:

I liked it - don't see why you're all so het up, it's just a film when all's said and done. It entertained me, that's all that matters.

5-24-03 5:12pm (new)
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bunnerabb
Some bloke.

Member Rated:

Jees, Chi. If you start talking like that, people will just start enjoying things because they are artistic and amusing or engaging. I mean, film makers will no longer be obliged to change the lives of everybody who sees their work or cater to every single expectation of every possible fan.

This, of course, will probably lead films being made that are just that... engaging and entertaining. Then they'll start re-introducing stuff like acting and plots and writers who can write and... I mean, you're dangerously close to instigating a paradigm shift in the American film industry that would lead to... GOOD FILMS BEING MADE!

What are you, some kind of commie?

---
I wanted my half in the middle and I wound up on the edge.

5-24-03 5:20pm (new)
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Chi_The_Cynic
Comoedus Cynicalis

Member Rated:

I think that the point is this...

(1) Yes, the Matrix and Reloaded take ideas from other pieces of fiction, philosophy and so on

(2) Yes, there is nothing "original" in Reloaded, besides the combination of other ideas in a certain way

However, some of you guys seem to forget that not everyone has read "Neuromancer" or Descartes or any of the other myriad of ingredients thrown together to make the Matrix trilogy. Whilst you may think the Matrix is bastardising these original ideas, please try to remember that not everyone has ever even heard of them let alone read them in a book. The majority of people who go to see films don't read for entertainment - they watch films. If the Matrix films can make people consider just one of those themes which they may or may not have picked up from some book the Wachowskis read, then I think that is a good thing.

You've got to quit wanking over how much you didn't like the philosophy/science fiction elements and remember that not everyone spends their lives with their head in a Gibson novel. Now, I've read Descartes and a whole host of other philosophy books, and I'm prepared to admit that whilst the Matrix films aren't original from a philosophical perspective, they nevertheless bring those philosophical ideas to people who would otherwise be ignorant of them. I think that for this reason alone the films deserve credit.

And as somebody else has already remarked, it seems to be popular to take the piss out of these films - so you just go right ahead doing that thinking how cool you are in the process for being one of the crowd. Meanwhile, I'll just sit back and enjoy the film when I go and see it again next week with my girlfriend.

Whatever guys, whatever.

5-25-03 1:31am (new)
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MaKK_BeNN
VOTE JEB BUSH 2008

Member Rated:

The part of the movie where Fiver saw all the blood in the field scared me.

---
Vote Jeb Bush 2008

5-25-03 8:38am (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

Beeg vottur!

Here, howcum posting doesn't log me in anymore?

5-25-03 9:07am (new)
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Brad
Feature Creep

Member Rated:

Chi, all that stuff about the Matrix philosophy being ripped off was boorite's issue. I don't think he's even seen Matrix Reloaded yet. I couldn't care less about that stuff.

Ripped off or not, I thought the concepts in the movie were good. I just thought they presented them in a really, really horribly boring way. I'm glad you and your girlfriend enjoy the movie. My girlfriend and I liked parts of it.

And I gots no issues with the popular movies. I ain't playa-hatin'. I was looking forward to it being a kinda mindless thrill ride and it turned out to be a speech and council meeting fest. I look forward to the internet providing me with a condensed fan edit.

---
www.bradsucks.net

5-25-03 10:19am (new)
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gabe_billings
President and CEO of Wirthlingsux Inc.

Member Rated:

quote:
Lets just hope that this is their "Back to the Future 2", and that they can come to their senses for the third instalment.

Yeah, but the third Back to the Future movie sucked too.

---
100 pounds of shit in a 25 pound sack.

5-25-03 10:26am (new)
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Chi_The_Cynic
Comoedus Cynicalis

Member Rated:

quote:

Ripped off or not, I thought the concepts in the movie were good. I just thought they presented them in a really, really horribly boring way.

Well, I'll admit the Morpheus spiels were sometimes a little over the top, but I really did enjoy the scene where Neo meets the Architect. The screens surrounding Neo in that room, with each screen containing more screens, and so and so on to depict the infinite possibilities that Neo could make in response to each line the Architect delivered was very clever, I felt.

But I know that many friends of mine who saw the movie were cheesed off by the "mumbo-jumbo", so I know I'm not the definitive voice on the issue. Ah well.

I'm still looking forward to the third installment in November.

5-25-03 11:26am (new)
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kramer_vs_kramer
Stripcreator Newbie

Member Rated:

I think the writers forgot that whole "show, don't tell" rule.

5-25-03 1:30pm (new)
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jes_lawson
I don't know what I'm doing either

Member Rated:

quote:
You know the best thing about the Matrix Reloaded was the Trailer for Terminator 3, I really should have just left after that.

That ass was great.

quote:

Anyway the problem with reloaded was more that it felt like they’d filmed a load of action set pieces and just cobbled them together, rather than construct a coherent film.

Agreed, sir. Having read everyone's comments here, I was expecting a really sucky film. It was pretty OK, I thought.

While not as good as the first film, the philospophical moments such as the park bench scene and the Councillor and Neo's conversation about the interdependance between man and machine made up for the over use of effects and very standard chop-sockey and "bullet-time" the rest of the film took up.

Trinity on the bike was great but Neo's fight with the 50 odd agents was some quite poor, *poor* chop-sockey.

One profound message I think I got from the film was that Good and Evil do not exist, only sepearate selfish entities, typified by Agent Smith's desire to exist and spread like a cancer. And if Choice is an illusion as well, it's one that even a machine is incapable of knowing. Which is nice.

quote:

Sadly I fear the matrix has become a victim of its own success, and that someone at Warner decided that the action sequences should take precedence over the plot.

Mmm...don't know the reasons for it but the outcome seems the same - nice idea hijacked by francise fiends.


Characters were added, and never expanded upon, The sex scene was woeful and unnecessary, even that French guy seemed to be added only to allow another chance for neo to kick ass,

Link seemed added to be "Token Black Guy Who Dies" - I wa surprised he survived. I'll be intersted to see what happens to him in Revolutions.

The French character was there simply to make fun of the French, who are fast replacing the English as "Accented Evil Character". We'll see what he really does in Revolutions. The combat scene with his cronies was, in places, poor.

The sex scene was hot, if a bit needlessly cut with that rave in Zion, but it felt wrong: if I wanted to see Carrie Ann Moss's legs and ass on a big screen I'd look it up on the 'Net, and not in a public cinema.

quote:

And then the wachowskis had an afterthought "Shit, we've forgotten to include all that social commentary we've been trying to subtlety inject about the human condition" and so in the end we get the architect babbling on about systems and control, and what have you. I could go on, but cant really be arsed, Basically it was crap, not because it didn’t look good, hell they spent enough money, but because they didn’t balance the big-budget action with the plot, and ended up with a confusing mess. Lets just hope that this is their "Back to the Future 2", and that they can come to their senses for the third instalment.

Any attempt to tie in an action film with any serious philosophical debate is like trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. Subtlety is lost. This film is a bit like economy beef paste spread - poor filler.

Everyone in the media here say the original Matrix was some kind of philosophical commentray ! Bollocks! It was about hackers and kung fu and slo-mo shots! This one has way more philosophy but it's lost in a sea of very VERY bog standard action sequences. Although Trinity on the bike was niiice.

Overall I liked it and that's what counts. I hope you all likd bits of it, however short.

---
Please replace the handset, and try again.

5-25-03 5:08pm (new)
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jes_lawson
I don't know what I'm doing either

Member Rated:

quote:
You know the best thing about the Matrix Reloaded was the Trailer for Terminator 3, I really should have just left after that.

That ass was great.

quote:

Anyway the problem with reloaded was more that it felt like they’d filmed a load of action set pieces and just cobbled them together, rather than construct a coherent film.

Agreed, sir. Having read everyone's comments here, I was expecting a really sucky film. It was pretty OK, I thought.

While not as good as the first film, the philospophical moments such as the park bench scene and the Councillor and Neo's conversation about the interdependance between man and machine made up for the over use of effects and very standard chop-sockey and "bullet-time" the rest of the film took up.

Trinity on the bike was great but Neo's fight with the 50 odd agents was some quite poor, *poor* chop-sockey.

One profound message I think I got from the film was that in reality, Good and Evil do not exist, only sepearate selfish entities, typified by Agent Smith's desire to exist and spread like a cancer. And if Choice is an illusion as well, it's one that even a machine is incapable of knowing. Which is nice.

That aside there was overuse of effects and little danger in the combat scenes. We'd seen that kung-fu before but what would have ruled is if Neo had been able to break an agent's arm badly, somethig visceral and tangible the audience could relate to. Reckon the censor wouldn't have had that though, sadly.

quote:

Sadly I fear the matrix has become a victim of its own success, and that someone at Warner decided that the action sequences should take precedence over the plot.

Mmm...don't know the reasons for it but the outcome seems the same - nice idea hijacked by francise fiends.


Characters were added, and never expanded upon, The sex scene was woeful and unnecessary, even that French guy seemed to be added only to allow another chance for neo to kick ass,

Link seemed added to be "Token Black Guy Who Dies" - I wa surprised he survived. I'll be intersted to see what happens to him in Revolutions.

The French character was there simply to make fun of the French, who are fast replacing the English as "Accented Evil Character". We'll see what he really does in Revolutions. The combat scene with his cronies was, in places, poor.

The sex scene was hot, if a bit needlessly cut with that rave in Zion, but it felt wrong: if I wanted to see Carrie Ann Moss's legs and ass on a big screen I'd look it up on the 'Net, and not in a public cinema.

quote:

And then the wachowskis had an afterthought "Shit, we've forgotten to include all that social commentary we've been trying to subtlety inject about the human condition" and so in the end we get the architect babbling on about systems and control, and what have you. I could go on, but cant really be arsed, Basically it was crap, not because it didn’t look good, hell they spent enough money, but because they didn’t balance the big-budget action with the plot, and ended up with a confusing mess. Lets just hope that this is their "Back to the Future 2", and that they can come to their senses for the third instalment.

Any attempt to tie in an action film with any serious philosophical debate is like trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. Subtlety is lost. This film is a bit like economy beef paste spread - poor filler.

Everyone in the media here say the original Matrix was some kind of philosophical commentray ! Bollocks! It was about hackers and kung fu and slo-mo shots! This one has way more philosophy but it's lost in a sea of very VERY bog standard action sequences. Although Trinity on the bike was niiice.

Overall I liked it and that's what counts. I hope you all liked bits of it, whichever bits they were and even if it was only eating the popcorn

---
Please replace the handset, and try again.

5-25-03 5:11pm (new)
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kaufman
Director of Cats

Member Rated:

A reader asks:

quote:
Ok, so I'm able to swallow most of this film, until one scene broke the illusion. A bunch of baddies have guns aimed at Neo, and start firing at once. A rain of bullets approaches him. Neo sticks out his hand, and the bullets stop in midair. Then like cartoon characters noticing for the first time they've walked off a cliff, they go plink-plink-plink to the ground.

This is not the problem. But what happens next is. A bunch of hand-to-hand combat ensues, and during the whole melee, no one in the least slips on any of the fallen bullets! Haven't the makers of this film seen Godzilla? Don't they know they can't break the laws of movie physics?


So, how am I supposed to explain this conundrum to the confused viewer?

---
ken.kaufman@gmail.com

5-25-03 8:17pm (new)
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evil_d
Riding through your town with his head on fire

Member Rated:

I don't know how much of this was in response to things I said earlier, but either way, I'd like to point out that I'm not faulting the Matrix for waxing philosophical, nor for being unoriginal about it. That's their prerogative, and at any rate no one can say they didn't see it coming. I'm not saying the Matrix was flawed because it wasn't intellectual enough for a discerning intellectual such as myself. What I'm saying is that the philosophy is not why I (or most people, I think) went to see it, and that I knew what to expect in that department from having seen the first movie. I didn't watch the Matrix because I was a Philosophy student. I didn't watch it for the same reasons I watched Pi (for example). I watched it because I wanted to see some fight scenes and special effects and all that. (And I stand by my opinion that it was worth my $9.50. As much as any movie is worth $9.50... grumble grumble.)

If bringing philosophy to the masses is truly one of the Wachowskis' goals, they'd be well advised to present it in the form of realistic, accessible and engaging dialogue -- or better yet, as kramer says, "show, don't tell". And at least -- and this was one of my major gripes with Reloaded -- spend a little less time contradicting themselves. When the Architect pretty much voided everything the Oracle had ever said, I felt like a chump for having wasted ten minutes listening to her ramble. I could have been out buying popcorn.

---------------

Interesting. That's pretty much the exact opposite of my opinion of Reloaded. Though I did like Neo's conversation with the Councillor, who made some good points, except that it seemed like a lot of great characterization and foreshadowing gone to waste. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if this whole installment wasn't just a set-up for the finale, in more than the obvious ways. There seemed to be a whole lot of seeds planted that never really sprouted.

---------------

quote:
A reader asks:

quote:
Ok, so I'm able to swallow most of this film, until one scene broke the illusion. A bunch of baddies have guns aimed at Neo, and start firing at once. A rain of bullets approaches him. Neo sticks out his hand, and the bullets stop in midair. Then like cartoon characters noticing for the first time they've walked off a cliff, they go plink-plink-plink to the ground.

This is not the problem. But what happens next is. A bunch of hand-to-hand combat ensues, and during the whole melee, no one in the least slips on any of the fallen bullets! Haven't the makers of this film seen Godzilla? Don't they know they can't break the laws of movie physics?


So, how am I supposed to explain this conundrum to the confused viewer?


Actually, the first installment explained pretty clearly why they're allowed to break any laws of physics they want, I thought. So maybe Neo and the guys he's fighting are so good at bending the laws of the matrix that they can walk on top of debris like bullets, or even crush them underfoot, with minimal effort. Are the bullets visible on the floor later in the scene? If Neo could stop them in mid-flight with a gesture, surely he could also sweep them out of the way as necessary, when we're not looking.

---
The what mentioned above is total fiction. Please don't take it seriously!

5-26-03 1:02am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

quote:

However, some of you guys seem to forget that not everyone has read "Neuromancer" or Descartes or any of the other myriad of ingredients thrown together to make the Matrix trilogy. Whilst you may think the Matrix is bastardising these original ideas, please try to remember that not everyone has ever even heard of them let alone read them in a book.

That is not what I meant at all. That is not it, at all.

First of all, my main problem with The Matrix (and this must go for both movies) is hardly intertextual. It's the humans-as-batteries premise. It's just stupid. It's so stupid, it ruins the movie. No movie pretending to be a) science fiction or b) intelligent in any sense can hinge on a speculative element that dumb. It violates known laws and principles of science. Can't do that and call it science fiction.

You could say the computers are stealing human beings' "life force" or something, and call it fantasy, and it would be fine. Much, much better, I think. Or if you wanted to stay science-fictiony, you could say the computers "feed" off our "dreams" in a metaphorical sense, compulsively gathering data from the infinitely complex system of the human mind. Actually, any two of us here could sit down and come up with about a dozen better premises in under 5 minutes. So for me, watching this movie is about as much fun as being on a bus driven by an idiot, and never mind the scenery.

You might ask yourself how the screenwriters could have ripped off good writers like Gibson and Sterling and still wound up with a script this bad. Because you're right: Most of the audience hasn't read any science fiction. The writers are counting on that. But they sure as hell read some themselves. Some of the stuff, including, I think, the movie's title, is lifted whole.

Which is fine! We all do it. I don't believe in originality. It's just that the humans-as-battery premise is a chickenshit sellout. Because what the screenwriters are doing with their little deus ex machina is circumventing no small obstacle. See, the Gibsonian future is dark and dystopic, just like The Matrix's, but for a more plausible reason: corporate dominance. This poses an obstacle to getting the film distributed by Time/Warner.

That's my guess, anyway. There have been big, successful science fiction pictures featuring coporate dystopias, like Robocop. Actually, that's the only one I can think of right offhand. But maybe the PR climate these days is too sensitive for anything so contemptuous of the status quo.

Add to this the general yammering about stuff like "postmodernism" surrounding this film, when the script has basically taken all "postmodern" elements out of cyberpunk and inverted them, so that there's nothing much "postmodern" about the thing, and you have a dumb, chickenshit, derivative movie hyped by a pretentious buzz. It can't be taken seriously, which is no problem, except that it begs to be taken seriously. I'd rather watch a Jackie Chan movie. I love Jackie Chan movies.

---
What others say about boorite!

5-27-03 8:30am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

re: the "postmodern" thing.

It's a slippery concept, and I'm not sure I've got it, but I think it's summed up pretty well by the major difference between The Matrix and Gibson's "Sprawl" trilogy, which so influenced it.

If you're going to read Mona Lisa Overdrive (the 3rd book), and you like surprises, stop reading now.

Wait, no one's reading this anyway.

So here it is, in a nutshell:

In The Matrix, the protagonists struggle to escape the illusory world of cyberspace and recover their place in "real" reality.

In Mona Lisa Overdrive, it's pretty much the opposite, except that the dichotomy of "real" and "illusory" gets pretty well demolished along the way.

That, to me, sums up modern vs. postmodern about as well as any example.

---
What others say about boorite!

5-27-03 8:48am (new)
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nuttlehead2000
Member - Tobor Fan Club

Member Rated:

oh i forgot to mention the fact that i saw the movie with my dad.in the middle of it i fell asleep right in the theatre.at the end of the movie he had to revive me from my coma.

---
No.

5-27-03 9:41am (new)
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NeoVid
Stripcreator Irregular

Member Rated:

quote:

First of all, my main problem with The Matrix (and this must go for both movies) is hardly intertextual. It's the humans-as-batteries premise. It's just stupid. It's so stupid, it ruins the movie. No movie pretending to be a) science fiction or b) intelligent in any sense can hinge on a speculative element that dumb. It violates known laws and principles of science. Can't do that and call it science fiction.

Ah.

Well, the Matrix's creators originally wanted the explanation to be something about the machines using the remaining humans' brains as part of their network. But their focus groups found that explanation too complicated, so they changed it from something complex that makes sense to something simple that doesn't.

You're completely right about it being a dumb premise. I'd think they'd use geothermal if they can't use solar. And even with this explanation, why the hell wouldn't they use, say, bacteria or something else that won't fight back?

---
"Only things I approve of should exist." -some guy on the internet

5-27-03 6:11pm (new)
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Spankling
Looking for love in ALL the wrong places, baby!

Member Rated:

Man is this a windy thread.

---
"Jelly-belly gigglin, dancin and a-wigglin, honey that's the way I am!" Janice the Muppet

5-27-03 8:11pm (new)
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Stripcreator » General Discussion » Matrix Reloaded: Replete with Suck


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