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HCRoyall
December 19, 2005 1:33 PM

I'm starting this so Luckyguess, Chucky O'Duckman, and the SC Fundie Duo can argue their points without pissing off the mods.

Have at it, buckaroos.

Post #206357link

Chuckaduck
December 19, 2005 2:04 PM

quote:
ChuckaDuck,

I don't quite understand your phrases in the first paragraph.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

quote:
Adams fall from grace was harsh, but just in the since that God told him you can eat of everything but this tree ( friut on the tree that is ). Adam although he had God with him was lonely, and as that result made adam a companion which was eve. You could say that this is where soulmate is from. So the devil convinced women to convince man to eat of the forbiden fruit. and the rest is pretty much punishment. God does love his creation, and we are his children, so do parents not punish there children for wrong doings. That is where Jesus comes in, he sent him to save us. Addam did have compassion and all that, but the devil's abilty to give Adam and Eve the boldness to eat the fruit hurt them. so that has to do with free will. And that perfection was lost when he ate the fruit.
Hole-E Chit is this ever amusing. A, you're the first and only Christian I've ever seen that had the balls to admit the Fall (where your ever-loving, ever-compassionate God created such horrible things to inflict unto Adam) severely harsh. Or you could wrap the last sentence up as, Flag Number One. I don't quite see why you bring Eve into this.......until I see you're blaming Adam's rebellion on her...oh, no, wait.......it's entirely women's fault, per you.... .....apparently. Odd. I'm reading as I type so you may indeed have the nerve to try and cover this point later, however until then let me mention once more. You say "the devil convinced". Again, you need to question the foresight of your "all-powerful being" who seems quite lacking in his abilities. There never should have been evil, nor Satan, if your views on God were at all accurate. You're take on the events of the Fall is both fundamental and childlike in its understanding. You somehow try to easily avoid any questions on the matter by ducking them altogether with claiming God + Adam & Eve is like Parents + Children. Way to leave the wet knife in front of the outlet of the two year old then, eh God? Dumbass. Your "loving" God that can do no wrong is a vindictive shite I must say. Let's review a little from my last post....

quote:
Then why did he create thorns and gnashing teeth that eat flesh? While you live behind the idea that God really just removed some of that fantastic staying power which is what brought death into the world, you maintain plants (but only some of them!) sprung forth thorns and animals (again, just some!) suddenly were meat-eating killers. HE did that.

quote:
How would creating that, introducing death and disease to Adam & Eve and the billions and billions of people that would supposedly descend from them, not taking into consideration that the little guy he created might not fathom ALL THERE IS and as such for what's hardly the worst thing in the world decides to curse Adam and all generations thereafter and send them to hell if they don't obey, etc, yada yada....

Just a couple of notes, but by all means read back through entirely. Ah, show me the love. Let's get onto this real quicklike...from my prior post...

quote:
Apparently all of suffering and death to this date can be reduced to nothing more than a stubborn and ignorant child mouthing off with a little defiance which is SINful because, well, that's the way God made him... Nice one.
Just because this "Satan" convinced the first two people to eat a fucking apple (DAMNATION TO THE APPLE BITERS!!!) doesn't mean they are suddenly sinful. They are the way God made them. They are flawed and "sinful" because of him. They have no reason to be held maliciously accountable for what He made of them.

quote:
Paragraph 3: God will never forget us, in fact he probably cries when his children sin.
He does not cry for he has nothing we call eyes. He's beyond this universe (note when I say things this way it's for the benefit of making a point and nothing more). At best he might "weep" or "mourn". But on the never forget us bit, the funny thing is this. I've noticed a popular rise in the fluff phrasing of "God created time, and now he's using it" in the way of why he's taking so long to get here as Jesus Christ once more ever since 2000 rolled by. Hmmmm.

quote:
his miracle light is everywhere if look for it. see, God and his son spread their light to their children.
Bullshit and you're on crack.

quote:
My question to you is do think christians are different from others in terms of morales and actions ( talking about true believers ).
Awesome how you say "Paragraph", insert a number, then completely ignore the content to make some strawman of a comeback. And on your brethren. Well now, how would a guy like Jesus Christ feel about this recent occupation of the oil lands. Oh what's the phrase; Who Would Jesus Bomb? I think you and others like you try to hide behind supposed hopes and dreams that book of yours conjurs up, screaming blasphemy at the heights of your lungs capasity at "sinful living", then turn right around and do fucked up shit yourselves. Some on Friday nights, others everyday with bigotry.

quote:
The earth is another miracle.

Yeah, because despite us it's still alive. That's Earth. Not the light of the children, not God, not you, just nature.

quote:
so the truth is that if you let him he talks to lost souls not the physical being that you see in front of you.

The TRUTH is you're entirely ignoring my previous post. The same post that contains questions even pastors fall silent in the face in, or merely duck the questions like you have.

quote:
Paragraph 4: He is all powerful, but nothing could create this in a few minutes.

Then he's not all-powerful.

See how that works?

quote:
God loves us and wouldn't let the devil take all his children..
If you're somehow right (which you're not) then your Bible shows such has already happened. Such a waste of souls, provided you're right, which you're not.

quote:
...therefore he went and told the only ritcheous( not spelled right) man to save himself of the flood, and if you read the bible it says the noah tried warning everyone he could but they didn't listen.
Yeah, God's a lazy prick. Apparently.

quote:
...you answered the fre will question
...by showing how powerless he may be...

quote:
...he did see that satan would betray him your correct there.
Damn right.

Which would bring back from the last post...well, the majority of it....

quote:
Does God not have the foresight to prevent a force that would affect his own creations in a way that would prevent them from going to his great beyond called Heaven? Did he really have to create Jesus to endure so much torture? Couldn't have done it a different way? Or done it sooner? Maybe even later? Another flood would've been good. Or here's a thought, He could have ended it all with Adam and Eve rather than letting this go on to an ugly point, which I'd hope you'd agree its at and has been off and on for, well, since Adam's little tantrum that screwed everybody EVER?

And whilst we're at it, let's cover the "fact" God permitted sin to take place and yet used it for good to ultimately glorify is His Son Jesus Christ. "Awuh", you say? Yup, Paul confirms this in Romans and it makes this entire thing sickening were it true. He PERMITS it but is in no way RESPONSIBLE for it? Is that what I'm reading? If God isn't to be held responsible for his creation Adam's sin, then we should not be accountable (none of us, from Adam's first child to the baby born in the time of your reading this and onward to all) for enduring an eternal punishment for something Adam did. You might argue, "Well fine then, are you stating yourself you're perfect therefore would not apply to the punishment of sin?" Not at all. I'm what the world has made me. I am the result of the people and beliefs I've encountered in my limited lifetime in a world that God created. And he did create all of this. Simply because something shows up later he supposedly didn't initially create doesn't make it "not his" or "not of him". Per you it was God that inflicted a life without his presence (the supposed cause of death, natural death of course as everything more is from diseases of his creation. while man may learn to unleash it, it's still there and his doing) and sent out his creations to suffer for not following his rules (a suffering that will continue for all time. Adam's in hell remember? Or is he the exception because....?) and gave the animals teeth and claws to cut and gnash at the flesh of humans.

You might say, "God knew that He would sacrifice Jesus to save us." Which in turn means he had the foresight to know that this would never work out and be perfect, so he knew he'd be creating sin and eternal damnation for those he knew would either not believe in a book written by men (whom bible thumping folks state are full of deceitful words themselves, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) or never know of how important the issue is. Where's my burning bush? I've led a good life. Where's my red sea? If all you say is true I surely don't want to burn for eternity (nice compassion there by the way) so if it's so important for Jesus to save my soul, why doesn't he visit me and have a chat so I can take his word for it over yours and over a book? Isn't a judgment to last an eternity worth that much?


quote:
If someone is all powerful than the might of thier very presense would be to much.
Only if he made it that way. He's all-powerful. I think you're not understanding the term and it's wrong application for the guy you call "God".

quote:
Paragraph 5: I think your messing with free will again.
I think you're high.

quote:
...but Jesus is giveing you a chance to ask for forgiveness. No one is perfect of the result of Adam, but that is what forgiveness is for.
But what do I have to be forgiven for? For being exactly what I am? God hates me because I don't fit his profile? WTF. HA! This is all too rich.

quote:
Paragraph 7: First of all, If you don't want to be tortured for eternity than why is it so difficult to get saved?
Why should I be punished in the first place?

quote:
Jesus speaks to you through others on salvation if they let him.
I don't think so.

quote:
Final Paragraph: I look foward to when I die seeing, praising, and being in heaven with my King, Saviour, and Father in total happiness with no suffering.
Codeine orgies have the same effect.

quote:
If he would have done that with Adam than you wouldn't have the chance to accept Jesus and go to heaven.
You just missed the bus. Destination; the point. Let's repost that last paragraph and see if a brain cell kicks in for you or something...

quote:
And, in closing, tell me what you're looking forward to after you die. The whole going to Heaven until he recreates the Earth anew with his forgiven, yes? That's what the Good Book says will happen. Here's the trouble with that everlasting notion. Basically he's cycling everything. He's going to wipe out all except his chosen, start the Earth anew (and supposedly perfect once more) but he'll be doing so with imperfect sinners. Forgiven sinners, but sinners that will sin once more because that's the nature of us, right? Oops on the logic there buddy. If He can recreate the world without the curse, he should have done so with Adam and saved the rest of us perversion, pain, misery, sadness, and death. Lazy again maybe?

quote:
If there any other questions than just ask.
Got brain?

For those wondering, original link HERE.

Post #206365link

Trace
December 19, 2005 2:52 PM

I'm speechless with admiration Chuckaduck. Your ability to argue the toss is awe inspiring.

Post #206366link

Chuckaduck
December 19, 2005 3:13 PM

It's all in the wrist...of the hand........in my pants...

Post #206368link

Hari_Nezumi
December 19, 2005 3:14 PM

God is a kid with an ant farm. He built it, he put the people in, and now he just sits back and watches what happens. He has virtually no control over anything the inhabitants of his creation do, but he could destroy them all in a matter of moments.

*bows and quietly trots out*

Post #206369link

Chuckaduck
December 19, 2005 3:23 PM

While that's a good metaphor to make one think, that's not at all the God written about in the Bible.

Post #206376link

LuckyGuess
December 19, 2005 4:11 PM

quote:
ChuckaDuck,

I don't quite understand your phrases in the first paragraph.

Paragraph 2: Wow! this is strange, and you knew I was going to say something. Adams fall from grace was harsh, but just in the since that God told him you can eat of everything but this tree ( friut on the tree that is ). Adam although he had God with him was lonely, and as that result made adam a companion which was eve. You could say that this is where soulmate is from. So the devil convinced women to convince man to eat of the forbiden fruit. and the rest is pretty much punishment. God does love his creation, and we are his children, so do parents not punish there children for wrong doings. That is where Jesus comes in, he sent him to save us. Addam did have compassion and all that, but the devil's abilty to give Adam and Eve the boldness to eat the fruit hurt them. so that has to do with free will. And that perfection was lost when he ate the fruit.

Paragraph 3: God will never forget us, in fact he probably cries when his children sin. his miracle light is everywhere if look for it. see, God and his son spread their light to their children. My question to you is do think christians are different from others in terms of morales and actions ( talking about true believers ). The earth is another miracle. Just look for them. so the truth is that if you let him he talks to lost souls not the physical being that you see in front of you.

Paragraph 4: He is all powerful, but nothing could create this in a few minutes. God loves us and wouldn't let the devil take all his children therefore he went and told the only ritcheous( not spelled right) man to save himself of the flood, and if you read the bible it says the noah tried warning everyone he could but they didn't listen. you answered the fre will question, he wants us to love him willingly ( no robots ). he did see that satan would betray him your correct there. If someone is all powerful than the might of thier very presense would be to much. In short its all on Faith.

Paragraph 5: I think your messing with free will again. but if not please explain again. Jesus was a must to save us.

Paragraph 6: what scripture of romans have you read. free will again, so if you choose to sin it is your own doing, but Jesus is giveing you a chance to ask for forgiveness. No one is perfect of the result of Adam, but that is what forgiveness is for.

Paragraph 7: First of all, If you don't want to be tortured for eternity than why is it so difficult to get saved? Jesus speaks to you through others on salvation if they let him.

Final Paragraph: I look foward to when I die seeing, praising, and being in heaven with my King, Saviour, and Father in total happiness with no suffering. If he would have done that with Adam than you wouldn't have the chance to accept Jesus and go to heaven. Also your right we are bound to sin, but forgiveness is a powerful thing, so true believers are perfect ENOUGH.

do you understand, All of this is pretty much based on Faith in all that was written.

If there any other questions than just ask.


This is too good. TOO damn good. Well, since you went to the trouble of numbering them, I'll respond in a similar way.

1. So your saying free will and boldness are evil? Nice. I have some Jewish friends who'd love to have a long talk with you about the goodness of conformity. About 6 million of them.

2. God cries? What a pansy. In terms of whether Christians act different than other religious groups, as a whole, no. We do get guys like you, however, who probably wouldn't eat candy canes if someone said they were anti-God. These same people are the ones that crucify (figuratively speaking) anyone who, in any context, defies some form of the bible (see the gays) despite the fact they may worship another faith and/or have none. Most christians are friendly, nice people who just want to have fun and enjoy life. But there will always be some who take the Bible too literally, and overstep their boundaries when speaking about it. Unfortunately this is usually people in a high ranking in the religious heiarchy. Until that ceases within organized religion, I'm keeping my distance.

Universal Truth: Faith is powerful. It can cause people to do incredible things and accomplish amazing feats of heroism and piety. Unfortunately, a side effect of this is that those who follow a faith are easily manipulated. Their good intentions are bent to the will of worldly powers, and thus the point is lost or forgotten amid a scheme for power and fame.

4. Why was Jesus a must to save us? What was he saving us from? According to your religion, and every other one ever, Hell still is around. People still go there. So, why did God's only son get tortured and killed? To save us from tax revenues? Gummy bears, popsicles, and rainbows? Diarrhea? Or did he save us from ourselves? Because if he did he really pulled it off. Millions of people die every year from domestic violence, firearm related and otherwise. People who didn't deserve it. Where was their savior? Did they get to save us from sin too?

5. My people wrote the old testament, ho. I may not be a practicing Jew, but I know what's in my own damn book. If you want forgiveness, you're supposed to get it like that, as long as you really want to. No divine court or Jesus trial by fire can change the words of the original. And humans were never perfect. We were crafted in God's image, not crafted as God. How fucked up would everything be if everyone just started creating universes? Adam was a side project.

6. Jesus speaks to you through others, eh? Why don't you sit next to me, Lancaster? I promise I won't bite.

Universal Truth: Organized religion boils down to this concept: A group of people whom faith has brought together under one individual is told by said individual to bomb, stab, shoot, rape, napalm, run over, melt or otherwise obliterate other small groups of people whom faith has brought together under one individual. And that isn't some farcical goth emo fantasy, either. Look in a history book- it happens all the time. It's happening now.

And finally: If your vision of eternal paradise is kissing God's cloudy ass, mine is going to be giving you rain swirlies.

Post #206379link

Zaster
December 19, 2005 5:07 PM

Forsooth! The Lord thy God shall smiteth upon thee for thine blasphemies. Verily, shall he pour out his fiery vengeance upon thee for thine inequities. Even unto the sons and stepsons of your son's grandsons, he shall cause thine household to be shatteth upon. And lo, there shall be much farting in the land.

That was directed at noone in particular.

Post #206396link

User #57435
December 19, 2005 7:37 PM

Wow, I though don't believe the same admire your comments cause that tells me you are wanting to learn, but my point is that everything is based on faith( a system of beleifs that is toward what the bible has said and what your heart tells you), so until this is understood we shall argue til the end of time. In turn the only comment I have is salvation is your key to the gates of heaven( in my beleif ), and I can only tell you the truth to the best of my ability. If you are truely seeking answers and your ready to accept them than I might post more on the subject later once I have read more of the bible over.

Post #206406link

DexX
December 19, 2005 7:43 PM

I used to be quite Christian, until I came to a realisation:

God knows all, past present and future, in all places, right? Before the universe began he knew what would happen in its final seconds. This means that nothing surprises him, nothing ever comes out of left field.

This has serious moral repercussions for me. Before God makes a human being, he already knows every moment of that person's life. He knows all their failures, all their pain, all their sadness, and, mostly importantly, he knows if they'll end up in Heaven at the end of it all.

Now, you can talk all you like about free will and causality, but the fact is, God knew everything that would happen in your life before you ever existed. If he is a loving, just, and omnipotent deity, then this means he chooses to leave us imperfect, he chooses to make us sinful, and he chooses to let us damn ourselves. He could avoid all of this - remember, Scripture tells us that God cannot abide sin, that he totally despises it. Why then does he let it happen and then punish it, rather than preventing it from happening in the first place?

"He can't make us do anything!" the fundies say. "We choose to sin, so it isn't his fault." This is untrue, though - he knows the sin is coming before it happens. He could send us divine signs, send an angel to warn us, or just create us better so we have free will but don't want to sin (and don't tell me he couldn't do that - he can do anything, remember).

So, something is wrong with this picture. God cannot be all of the following: a) loving, b) just, and c) omnipotent. If he were truly loving, he would use his omnipotence to save us from ourselves, or make us better people so we wouldn't need saving in the first place. If he were truly just he wouldn't set us up for failure, knowing in advance every misstep we would make and doing nothing to prevent it. If he were truly omnipotent he would have made the world a better place where shit like this just doesn't happen.

This leaves three options that I can see:

1) God is omnipotent and just (in his own twisted opinion of justice) but he doesn't love us.

2) God is omnipotent and loving, but he has no real concept of justice or fairness - basically, he's a sociopath.

3) God is loving and just, but although he is a big powerful divine being, he is not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent.

There are also the "he doesn't exist at all" arguments, but I am convinced of some kind of benevolent deity, so I've settled on option 3 for now.

Post #206407link

biped
December 19, 2005 7:48 PM

Blah blah blah.

Post #206411link

HotRodDeathToll
December 19, 2005 8:09 PM

Jesus is dead, santa doesn't exist and neither do smart blondes. Full Stop.

Post #206425link

niteowl
December 19, 2005 8:17 PM

Call me cynical, but the idea of being coerced into a certain lifestyle and belief system by instilling the fear of going to "hell" seems just a smidge fascist to me. God can take his foot off the throats of his followers at any time now. Big bully.

Post #206426link

boorite
December 19, 2005 8:43 PM

Let's see if I have this straight.

The first humans live in a state of bliss, not knowing good from evil. The only thing they're forbidden is knowledge of good and evil. Then they partake of this knowledge and are punished for doing evil. But at the time that they partake of this knowledge, they don't know good from evil. They can only realize they've done evil after they've partaken of the forbidden knowledge. They're punished for having done evil when they could not possibly have grasped the concept of good or evil or known the difference.

MAKES SENSE! THANKS A MILLION, YAHWEH!

Post #206432link

User #57435
December 19, 2005 10:01 PM

man, okay I can't answer all your questions at once, but I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say. I shall do it one at a time.

Post #206439link

HotRodDeathToll
December 19, 2005 10:10 PM

quote:
man, okay I can't answer all your questions at once, but I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say. I shall do it one at a time.

Why is god, dog backwards?

Post #206440link

boorite
December 19, 2005 10:18 PM

quote:
man, okay I can't answer all your questions at once, but I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say. I shall do it one at a time.

I'm not trying to interpret what you're saying. I'm pointing out that it's a little weird to punish creatures who don't know good from evil, and even weirder to punish them for getting the knowledge of good and evil that might have enabled them to make a moral choice in the first place. I mean that's a weird story, and it makes God sound a little crazy. Don't you think?

Post #206443link

ivytheplant
December 19, 2005 10:20 PM

I worship cats.

Post #206444link

User #57435
December 19, 2005 10:26 PM

To LuckyGuess,

Boldness and free will is not evil the devil is.

Also I didn't ask if christians where different from other religions( sorry that was poorly stated ) I said that do you think that christians are different from people without religion. I didn't mean to post anything to figuratively crucify anyone either.

Yes people will go to hell, those who don't accept Jesus( all has to do with salvation ) it says in the bible ( not exact words ) that Jesus is the one to talk to ( prayer ) to get to God.( my beleif) Death is a part of life to saved people. Adam was an image created being, and if I ever implied that he was perfect than I apologize. Oh, and i'm not a lancaster( refering to magic correct?).

I'm not trying to bomb, stab, shoot, rape, napalm, run over, melt or otherwise obliterate other small groups of people whom faith has brought together under one individual as was stated. I have been taught to love everyone enemy or friend.

Post #206445link

boorite
December 19, 2005 10:53 PM

quote:
Yes people will go to hell, those who don't accept Jesus( all has to do with salvation ) it says in the bible ( not exact words ) that Jesus is the one to talk to ( prayer ) to get to God.

Yeah. It also has Jesus distinguishing between himself and the Father. And saying none is good but the Father. And telling people to pray to the Father. And telling people how to be "saved" without mentioning any of that stuff about having to go through Jesus to get to the Father.

Guess you can't believe the whole Bible all at once, eh?

Post #206449link

User #57435
December 19, 2005 11:02 PM

quote:
quote:
Yes people will go to hell, those who don't accept Jesus( all has to do with salvation ) it says in the bible ( not exact words ) that Jesus is the one to talk to ( prayer ) to get to God.

Yeah. It also has Jesus distinguishing between himself and the Father. And saying none is good but the Father. And telling people to pray to the Father. And telling people how to be "saved" without mentioning any of that stuff about having to go through Jesus to get to the Father.

Guess you can't believe the whole Bible all at once, eh?


THIS WAS SAID BY...What am I doing, I tell you what, actually to everyone who is on this post, don't listen to me anymore read this for yourself. It is my job as a christian to tell you about salvation not the stories in the bible. so I won't be coming back for awhile. this post wasn't meant in a mean manner.

later discussion buddies

Post #206451link

boorite
December 19, 2005 11:10 PM

Guy: Let me tell you about salvation. (Tells about salvation.)

Chorus: That makes very little sense.

Guy: Zoom zoom zoom! (Exits.)

Post #206452link

User #57435
December 19, 2005 11:23 PM

I have mentioned salvation in all sorts of places. my comics, and in different other posts as well.

If you feel convicted than all you do is pray to Jesus repent ask him in and for foriveness. That is all I can do for you it is up to you now.

/comics/goofycomiinc/328453/

but Jesus is giveing you a chance to ask for forgiveness.

there you go buddy.

now i'm really leaving.

Post #206453link

boorite
December 19, 2005 11:37 PM

quote:
If you feel convicted than all you do is pray to Jesus repent ask him in and for foriveness. That is all I can do for you it is up to you now.

That's it? But if you're wrong, and Jesus isn't God, then praying to Jesus breaks a Commandment. Probably two Commandments (no gods before Him and no idolatry, maybe even throw in a Lord's name in vain). What you're encouraging could be a very grave error. So don't you think it merits a little more serious treatment than "hey pray to Jesus kthx bye?"

Post #206455link

ivytheplant
December 19, 2005 11:49 PM

Post #206458link

mandingo
December 20, 2005 2:13 AM

"I pissed off now, Jo-Buu. I good to you, I stand up for you. If you no help me now...

I say fuck you, Jo-Buu. I do it myself."

Post #206467link

boorite
December 20, 2005 2:29 AM

Post #206469link

Zaster
December 20, 2005 4:11 AM

Have you accepted Cthulhu into your hearts? When the Old Ones awaken and reclaim what is thiers, only the faithful shall be spared.

Post #206476link

FinnNYC
December 20, 2005 8:51 AM

I saw Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" last month and it was awesome. I've considered myself Agnostic for most of my life but have moved into the Atheist column in the last decade. Julia Sweeney's Monologue helped me crystalize what moved me there by illustrating the mostly subconsciousl thought process that I went through. I'm just a schlub that examines evidence that is within my reach from the sofa but Julia took her search on the road to the places where she could get direct answers. Her journey from devout Catholic to Atheist is worth documenting in a bible-like tome as a story of logic and reason instead of superstition and faith.

Here's a review

It's a great show that I think anyone would find interesting if not enlightening.

Post #206489link

Chuckaduck
December 20, 2005 9:03 AM

I heart boorite.

quote:
Wow, I though don't believe the same admire your comments cause that tells me you are wanting to learn...
No, no, no. I've learned, and now I'm trying to teach. I'm wanting to challenge your mind and faith with basic logic of the situations the Christian faith is based on.

quote:
but my point is that everything is based on faith, so until this is understood we shall argue til the end of time.
Ah, but you're misinterpreting this "discussion" (which it isn't, it's points being made to you and you ignoring them). I'm not sitting here basing anything I type on faith in Christianity, faith in Evolutionary Theory, faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I'm sitting here basing every word on consideration of your Holy Bible. If the book in question is unerringly the perfect work of God then every single aspect and statement of it (especially the entire expanse of the Old Testament) must be true and not open from interpretation by mortal ideals. If such is not the case, if one word of it isn't true, your Holy text unravels and becomes meaningless. I'm trying to show that said book could never become meaningless as it never meant anything due to the worthlessness it placed on us from the very first chapter. That and that your supposedly almighty and omnipotent Lord isn't that at all, and as the book claims him as such, it's already based itself inside a sea of false pretences.

quote:
In turn the only comment I have is salvation is your key to the gates of heaven ( in my beleif )...
And you need to challenge that belief and see it for what it is.

quote:
...and I can only tell you the truth to the best of my ability.
You worship false text, you know no such truth in this matter be it that the case.

quote:
If you are truely seeking answers and your ready to accept them than I might post more on the subject later once I have read more of the bible over.
Read away, you will not find the answers to the questions and comments I have raised. No pastor nor minister can less they abandon the Bible's text in favor of "holy retconning" or snubbing.

quote:
...I can't answer all your questions at once...
Or at all, sorry.

quote:
...but I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say.
This from one who cannot retell the tale of Adam and the Fall to properly reflect the situation in the ever-loving light that would show that we're not worthless, God is all-powerful, and that "sin" has any validity as something bad.

quote:
Yes people will go to hell...
Then there is no compassion for humanity from Him. Let's rehash what's been said quickly. Per you I am going to Hell and you (let's say) will be going to Heaven. Why is that? Because you've been forgiven? Because you asked if it was okay that you're not perfect? That you're exactly what he made you to be?

So anyways, you're heading through the pearly gates. The entire reason you're there is that you're awaiting the day Christ will swoop down and slaughter evil (yes, slaughter, ask you're local religious leader about that), taking his chosen back with him. The Earth will go through some Revelation-type shit for a while and God will then (per your book my friend) recreate the Earth anew with no sin, no hate, no imperfections. That's the promise, the dream. Most of you Christians leave it as going to Heaven and being done with it. That's simply not the case per the Bible you worship. This raises the instant question of; If your all-powerful (pft) Lord God can recreate this reality with no flaws and he had the foresight to know this would be the case, why create an imperfect world to begin with? Why let so many souls burn in the Hell he created (he is the maker of all, so he created that as well) if he could simply recreate all into perfection?

quote:
those who don't accept Jesus( all has to do with salvation ) it says in the bible ( not exact words ) that Jesus is the one to talk to ( prayer ) to get to God.
"those who don't accept Jesus it says in the bible that Jesus is the one to talk to to get to God."

Nice run-on.

Quick repost since it's still valid...

quote:
Simply because an all-powerful entity that seems to have had such a huge hand in vast doings on Earth in the olden days (as shown in the Bible) doesn't feel bothered to drop on by again with another grand miracle to get his point across maybe? Would this little endeavor he seems to be doing out of spiteful boredom (if you're correct that is) not be a tad more successful if he dropped a little show of his holy presence through the sky with all the angels and whatnot and said to all, "Hey there, I'm real, the Bible is an accurate work of my inspiration, and if you don't listen to it and its teachings I'm going to send all of you to hell. B'bye."? If he truly wants results it's better he do it himself rather than laying the task onto people who are both flawed and full of sin themselves, even the best of them. When supposed speakers of God are shown to be doing drugs, having sex with hookers, etc, wouldn't be more prudent (given this is eternity punishment or reward for results produced of a handful of years in this physical life recall) for him to show up himself or use a bit more of that all-powerful stuff of his to show how serious this is?

You might say, "God knew that He would sacrifice Jesus to save us." Which in turn means he had the foresight to know that this would never work out and be perfect, so he knew he'd be creating sin and eternal damnation for those he knew would either not believe in a book written by men (whom bible thumping folks state are full of deceitful words themselves, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) or never know of how important the issue is. Where's my burning bush? I've led a good life. Where's my red sea? If all you say is true I surely don't want to burn for eternity (nice compassion there by the way) so if it's so important for Jesus to save my soul, why doesn't he visit me and have a chat so I can take his word for it over yours and over a book? Isn't a judgment to last an eternity worth that much?


The funny thing is, I could just keep reposting the entire initial post to anything you say if I chose and I wouldn't lose a bit a validity. Natch.

quote:
( my beleif)
This isn't about your belief.

"Gasp!" you say?

Correct. As a Christian it's vital your beliefs are in sync to the letter with the holy text of your God. If you start to follow your own beliefs you become compromised in your faith. You cannot step out of the Bible to support it, and unfortunately there's not words on any of the pages to help you here.

This next part makes me giddy.

quote:
Adam was an image created being...
Definition of the term "image created being" please.

Here it comes!

quote:
...and if I ever implied that he was perfect than I apologize.
Today is a date to mark on the calendar of the ages then. You just apologized for the possibility of supporting what your Bible says. Adam and the world with him were created perfect, that's why the Fall was such a big deal.

quote:
...I'm not trying to bomb, stab, shoot, rape, napalm, run over, melt or otherwise obliterate other small groups of people whom faith has brought together under one individual as was stated.
No, just claiming an eternity (can you fathom eternity?) of eternal punishment for those living as God has created them.

quote:
I have been taught to love everyone enemy or friend.
Even though it says in the Bible cling to that which is good, hate that which is evil? (Ask your pastor) Promotion of hate. Gotta love it.

quote:
It is my job as a christian to tell you about salvation not the stories in the bible.
Bullshit. As a Christian it's your life's mission to defend your faith. You need to spend more time at church if the above quoted statement is at all what you truly believe. While you're there ask about some of the stuff here. Heck, feel free to print out my posts and hand deliver them to your pastor. He will not have the answers.

LEAVE THIS PART OUT FOR HIM: He'll probably tell you to not worry about it, trust in God, nothing more, maybe you shouldn't return here. The reasons being he doesn't have the answers to the questions and comments provided and as such can't defend against them with his ministry of hate and bigotry wrapped in a blanket of promises and "love". Go ahead, leave this part out, then compare later.

quote:
If you feel convicted than all you do is pray to Jesus repent ask him in and for foriveness.

Why? I'm just fine. I'm happy, healthy and see no reason to ask forgiveness for being myself. So fuggabunchayoooo. :)

quote:
That is all I can do for you it is up to you now.
*Sigh*

Actually it's all on you.

quote:
so I won't be coming back for awhile.

quote:
now i'm really leaving.

See you soon I'm sure.

Post #206491link

BigFrank105
December 20, 2005 9:44 AM

i love these

Post #206493link

kaufman
December 20, 2005 9:44 AM

Post #206494link

theReverend
December 20, 2005 10:09 AM

I sum up my religious beliefs thusly:
Even if the God existed, which would have to be proven to me beyond scientifically, even if Jesus himself walked up to me and said, "I am your Saviour, take my Hand into the Future, lol," I would simply have to decline, based on either His folly in the Bible, or if the Bible was wrong then that's probably enough as well.

Not that anybody asked.

The Beard has spoken.

Post #206497link

HCRoyall
December 20, 2005 2:42 PM

quote:
God is a kid with an ant farm. He built it, he put the people in, and now he just sits back and watches what happens. He has virtually no control over anything the inhabitants of his creation do, but he could destroy them all in a matter of moments.

*bows and quietly trots out*

Wrong. We're a science experiment in a shoebox on his dresser. He takes the lid off every couple of hours, hence why we have "day". The stars are actually the light from his reading lamp shining through the airholes.

DexX brought up the point that God knows everything that will happen to us in our prospective lifetime. I go one step further to say that God knows every possible choice we could ever make in our life, and he's kicking back in his recliner with a brewski and watching us to see what choices we make on our own.

Evil exists because Good has no meaning without it. Hence the free will. What's the point of giving your creations free will if their only choices are exactly what you want them to do? Answer: There is no point. Without evil, we would have no concept of good, and vice versa. I'm not saying he likes the fact, but I see it as a form of Taxes. Government funding is great, but unless we pay taxes, there is no government funding.everything exists for a reason.

Personally, I think all religions are fundamentally the same. They all say "Don't kill each other, don't steal, don't fuck your buddy's wife. While you're at it, be nice to people who look and think differently than you." They all say to be a good person or you'll get fucked over when you die. The differences in each religion is a test God put out there to test us on how well we follow said rules, and we're failing, miserably.

Shoving your religion down someone's throat isn't going to convert them. Actually following the tenets of your religion and not being a fucking hypocrite will. Unless you're a Fundie or Islamofascist or whatever the proper term is for a zealot of your religion (Uberjew?) at which point you might as well throw yourself off a cliff. Make sure there are rocks at the bottom, because the rest of us don't want you to survive.

Post #206539link

Chuckaduck
December 20, 2005 3:03 PM

quote:
They all say "...don't fuck your buddy's wife..."
Good advice on any forum.

I see where you're coming from, but for the mostpart I always attribute "good" and "evil" to be mere dramatic terms on personally preferred subjective actions and feelings. BUT that's just me, and just sometimes.

I pretty much stick to the idea everybody's a fucking dumbass for attempting to add some Terran/mortal ideology to something as incredible as the universe, then state all religions hold but a grain of sand in from the beach that is the Truth, then count myself among them and continue to just live happily WITHOUT beating myself up for being myself.

^_^

Post #206544link

Hari_Nezumi
December 20, 2005 3:05 PM

quote:
quote:
God is a kid with an ant farm. He built it, he put the people in, and now he just sits back and watches what happens. He has virtually no control over anything the inhabitants of his creation do, but he could destroy them all in a matter of moments.

*bows and quietly trots out*

Wrong. We're a science experiment in a shoebox on his dresser. He takes the lid off every couple of hours, hence why we have "day". The stars are actually the light from his reading lamp shining through the airholes.

DexX brought up the point that God knows everything that will happen to us in our prospective lifetime. I go one step further to say that God knows every possible choice we could ever make in our life, and he's kicking back in his recliner with a brewski and watching us to see what choices we make on our own.

Evil exists because Good has no meaning without it. Hence the free will. What's the point of giving your creations free will if their only choices are exactly what you want them to do? Answer: There is no point. Without evil, we would have no concept of good, and vice versa. I'm not saying he likes the fact, but I see it as a form of Taxes. Government funding is great, but unless we pay taxes, there is no government funding.everything exists for a reason.

Personally, I think all religions are fundamentally the same. They all say "Don't kill each other, don't steal, don't fuck your buddy's wife. While you're at it, be nice to people who look and think differently than you." They all say to be a good person or you'll get fucked over when you die. The differences in each religion is a test God put out there to test us on how well we follow said rules, and we're failing, miserably.

Shoving your religion down someone's throat isn't going to convert them. Actually following the tenets of your religion and not being a fucking hypocrite will. Unless you're a Fundie or Islamofascist or whatever the proper term is for a zealot of your religion (Uberjew?) at which point you might as well throw yourself off a cliff. Make sure there are rocks at the bottom, because the rest of us don't want you to survive.


Um...OK. Good job taking someone who just wanted to innocently put in their two cents and not mean anything by it and trying to prove them wrong, even though they weren't agreeing or disagreeing with everyone. Good. Just...good.

Post #206545link

DragonXero
December 20, 2005 3:12 PM

quote:
God is a kid with an ant farm. He built it, he put the people in, and now he just sits back and watches what happens. He has virtually no control over anything the inhabitants of his creation do, but he could destroy them all in a matter of moments.

*bows and quietly trots out*


That's almost exactly what I believe. Though I believe he has the ability to change whatever he wants, he just doesn't, preferring to watch it all play out instead.

I mean, seriously, what fun is having your own reality if you know exactly what's going to happen? It's like he set up a physics model and set things into motion.

Post #206546link

boorite
December 20, 2005 4:34 PM

I know if I ever get a hankerin' to save some heathens, this is the first place I'm posting!

Post #206553link

HCRoyall
December 20, 2005 4:48 PM

quote:
Um...OK. Good job taking someone who just wanted to innocently put in their two cents and not mean anything by it and trying to prove them wrong, even though they weren't agreeing or disagreeing with everyone. Good. Just...good.
Actually, only the first aragrah was referring to you, Hari. Sorry I didn't clarify. My bad.

Post #206556link

boorite
December 20, 2005 5:06 PM

quote:
I know if I ever get a hankerin' to save some heathens, this is the first place I'm posting!

Because I'm a fucking idiot!

Post #206563link

HCRoyall
December 20, 2005 5:12 PM

quote:
quote:
I know if I ever get a hankerin' to save some heathens, this is the first place I'm posting!

Because I'm a fucking idiot!
You've got enough on your plate "saving" Ivy three or four times a day.

Post #206564link

ivytheplant
December 20, 2005 5:43 PM

"Oh God! Oh God! Yes! Yes! YES! Praise the Lord!"

Post #206573link

HCRoyall
December 20, 2005 6:11 PM

quote:
"Oh God! Oh God! Yes! Yes! YES! Praise the Lord!"
Tell it, sister!

Post #206581link

LuckyGuess
December 20, 2005 6:14 PM

Chuck, you are a God. In fact, you are the only God apart from Squidrabies. I'm making you a shrine next to his.

As for Fundie 1, let's review the score.

quote:
To LuckyGuess,

Boldness and free will is not evil the devil is.


You just contradicted yourself. Niiiice.
One point for me.

quote:
Also I didn't ask if christians where different from other religions( sorry that was poorly stated ) I said that do you think that christians are different from people without religion.

I want you to watch sesame street sometime. There's an interseting part of the show called "One of these things is not like the other." It's highly entertaining. Yes, Christians are different than Atheists. But what does that prove? That you're... better? Superior to those without faith? That's not religion, that's being pompous. One point me.
quote:
I didn't mean to post anything to figuratively crucify anyone either.

I don't mean to eat Captain Crunch in the morning, I just do. Point to me.

quote:
Yes people will go to hell, those who don't accept Jesus( all has to do with salvation ) it says in the bible ( not exact words ) that Jesus is the one to talk to ( prayer ) to get to God.( my beleif) Death is a part of life to saved people. Adam was an image created being, and if I ever implied that he was perfect than I apologize.

I can't do better than Chuck on this one. Point to Chuck, which bycariously is a point to me.

quote:
Oh, and i'm not a lancaster( refering to magic correct?).

Proof that Krazy Christians live under rocks. Point me.

quote:
I'm not trying to bomb, stab, shoot, rape, napalm, run over, melt or otherwise obliterate other small groups of people whom faith has brought together under one individual as was stated. I have been taught to love everyone enemy or friend.

Unless, of course, they happen to be gay. Or they don't love Jesus. Or they enjoy popsicles, gummy bears, rainbows, and Grand Theft Auto. Or they don't embrace wholesome family values. Or they support abortion. Or whatever. Point to me, again.

Well, if my math is correct, I win by six. Obviously my points are easier to combat, as they don't assault religion in itself, just the human aspect of it. Therefore, I look forward to playing again later. Probably this afternoon, by the look of things.

quote:
i should leave

Cut and run, Godboy. Cut and run.

Post #206582link

squidrabies
December 20, 2005 6:43 PM

310573
313669
I think if any of that Eden stuff happened (which it didn't), it was exactly like that. The Fall happened because God was bored with his creation.

312173
If there is a God (which there probably isn't), he didn't create us out of loneliness or love. If he had, he'd spend more time with us. Which he doesn't. Not that I blame him, because we suck. And don't give me any of that, "God is always with us" stuff. When I hang out with my friends, I'm not in the crawlspace eavesdropping. That's just creepy. The point here is, God would only have created us for entertainment value. Creating us is like, for God, deciding to get cable. The good cable, with HBO and the porn channel. And don't tell me God hangs out with everyone in heaven. If he doesn't here, he doesn't there. Why would anyone even want to hang out with him? What would you talk about?

ME: (uncomfortable silence, then) Oh, hey. Great job on pizza rolls. They're awesome.

HIM: Well, that wasn't really me. I mean, someone else thought it up.

ME: (pause) Yeah, but you made that guy. And you made all the indredients, am I right? Pizza rolls rule.

HIM: I created the earth and everything on it, but pizza rolls were a product of free will. I can't really take credit for that.

ME: (scratches head) Thanks for the awesome free will?

HIM: Whatever. I gotta go start a flood, see you around.

Post #206585link

HCRoyall
December 20, 2005 6:49 PM

Squid, your arguments are irrelevant because you are, in fact, God.

Post #206586link

boorite
December 20, 2005 7:23 PM

Post #206591link

Hari_Nezumi
December 20, 2005 7:50 PM

quote:
quote:
Um...OK. Good job taking someone who just wanted to innocently put in their two cents and not mean anything by it and trying to prove them wrong, even though they weren't agreeing or disagreeing with everyone. Good. Just...good.
Actually, only the first aragrah was referring to you, Hari. Sorry I didn't clarify. My bad.

Oh. Well shit. Now I feel like a jackass. Sorry.

Post #206602link

boorite
December 20, 2005 8:05 PM

quote:
Now I feel like a jackass.

With or without ketchup?

Post #206608link

mandingo
December 20, 2005 10:39 PM

quote:
I pretty much stick to the idea everybody's a fucking dumbass for attempting to add some Terran/mortal ideology to something as incredible as the universe
amen

:)

i take it a step farther though and apply it to atheists as well. truth is we DON'T know the first thing about whether there is a god. so those atheists that have doubts and those religious folk that have doubts are the most well adjusted imo. it's the fuckers that believe too strongly one way or the other that scare the shit out of me. you see it in the religious all the time, but you also see it in atheists.

that's why i liked the review of that Julia Sweeney tape and will probably check it out. it says it's "Not a diatribe against religion – for she is not an angry atheist crusader –- nor a rejection of Church, Letting Go is a window into a life examined that all but the most doctrinaire can appreciate."

that's the way to go. leave those zealot atheist and religious folk on the other side of the track, jack. realize that everyone is doing their best to make sense of this crazy situation we find ourselves in. and don't feel the need to tear down opposing opinions to validate your own

Post #206626link

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